Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Author	Self equalising anchor
tris 28-Jul-2008 9:51:43 PM	In this instance you are correct. If I thought there was any danger of the cam blowing I would have put a limiting knot on that piece as well. This photo was taken after the seconder had finished the pitch and I have taken the belay device off the anchor (I belay directly from the anchor, not on my harness). I also use an auto-block belay device (atc guide) so I can sit further away from the device without worrying about having to lock it off. Also bear in mind that the ledge is quite large and that the cam blowing would not cause me to go over the edge (from memory anyway). I do stongly recommend John Long's new book, it covers all of this.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 28-Jul-2008 9:53:41 PM	Tris made a judgement call and put a limiting knot in one arm of the system. If he had wished to do so he could have put a limiting knot in all three arms ... Post edit: Ah, good evening Tris! Your reply (that I was unaware of when I made mine), makes this post redundant! ... Redundancy is one of the aspects of a good belay!!
tris 28-Jul-2008 9:54:30 PM	Got it in one M9, top of the class :)
ajfclark 28-Jul-2008 9:58:50 PM	On 28/07/2008 tris wrote: >I do strongly recommend John Long's new book, it covers all of this. What's the title of the book?
tris 28-Jul-2008 10:05:38 PM	It's called 'Climbing Anchors'. This is the same title as his old book, it's just he has updated it after he did a bunch of research. If your looking for it, get the one that was printed in 2006 (I think). It should have a cover that looks like this:
ajfclark 28-Jul-2008 10:07:17 PM	Cheers Tristan.
Pat 29-Jul-2008 10:05:20 AM	Yep, true enough. So like the cordelette, this type of belay has its limitations too. Shock loading potential in this case or lack of directional movement in the cord. Still an interesting thread compared to getting on with my masters thesis :)
skink 29-Jul-2008 10:33:02 AM	Another thing to bear in mind with this sliding configuration (without lots of limiter knots) is that you are reducing redundancy - if the equalising sling gets cut/fails (rockfall from above, cut over a sharp edge when you get pulled around in some catastrophe, the sling belongs to your partner who likes keeping leaking car batteries in the boot of his car, whatever else your paranoia can imagine) the system fails. Not a high likelihood, I know, but I kinda like the warm fuzzy feeling I get when I am not entirely reliant on a single piece of equipment for my belays (in this case the sling).
evanbb 29-Jul-2008 11:03:07 AM	A good point well made Andesite. I'm a big fan of cordlette for trad anchors. 3 pieces, a clove hitch on the 2 'outside' pieces, often backed up with a fisherman or similar, depending on how much tail. Clip the middle through the centrepiece and pull the loop between the 2 pieces down to the equalisation point. I then tie a fat figure 8 and call it the main point. I like tying knots, and find this system really quick, quite solid, and the clovehitches make it easy to adjust. The figure 8 at the end means the 3 pieces are isolated if the cord fails anywhere. Equalising anchors have always disturbed me a bit, but I climb with a huge factor of safety generally. Nothing like a technical anchor discussion to get people typing...
IdratherbeclimbingM9 29-Jul-2008 11:26:38 AM	>Nothing like a technical anchor discussion to get people typing... Been done many times before. Quote from Phil Box on an earlier Chockstone thread >The Sliding X thread over on rc.com may be one of the most useful discussions to ever come out of the internet as far as climbing goes. >John Long has put many posts into that thread and he discusses recent testing on the powerpoint cordalette and webolette. Tech tips link Another link and another and again more and another! (... ~> may need to follow the thread after the initial post link on some of those). A thorough search would undoubtedly turn up more ... I agree with this gfdonc quote; On 6/10/2006 gfdonc wrote: >I love equalising two pieces with a sliding X. Doesn't happen very often, >but sometimes memorable. (I'm talking runners, not a belay). Jamming >in multiple pieces sounds fine, but halving the impact force has gotta >be better. In a nutshell (imo). Sliding-X equalisation is best left for equalising a dicey component arm, within a multi(arm)-point belay, using a cordalette to minimse extension should one of the sliding X pieces fail (ie. equalise two poor pro pieces with the X, and then the X is one of three points of a cordalette). It can also be quite handy for equalising less than ideal aid pieces on hard aid climbs.
rolsen1 29-Jul-2008 9:03:08 PM	On 29/07/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >>In a nutshell (imo). Sliding-X equalisation is best left for equalising >a dicey component arm, > I've written in the new thread started by evanbb and I won't post a lengthy post again but... John says in the rc thread - that he has clear evidence that cordelettes do not work how we all assumed (and were taught) and he explains clearly what is wrong with them. If you know there is a better way to rig a belay why wouldn't you use it all the time and not just in dicey situations.
gfdonc 29-Jul-2008 11:36:05 PM	I disclaim any resemblance, personal or in being thereof; to any previous postings. -S new zullund time, somfin like 1-firty am.
foreverabumbly 30-Jul-2008 12:46:07 AM	Tests were done when a two armed self equalising anchor was rigged so that the shortest arm failed. when the load transfered onto the longer arm (shockloading it) it experienced no significantload multiplication. in terms of fall factors it reached a consistant fall factor of 1. If the climber is on a dynamic rope then this will be reduced substantialy. "This series of testing demonstrates conclusively that no catastrophic shock loading and no load multiplication occur as a result of the extention"(Long, 2006 pg 191) Though this doesnt stop you falling of the edge if the extention drags you off. It is also recommended that limiter knots always be used.
foreverabumbly 30-Jul-2008 12:59:14 AM	Also, tests where done on an cordelette which measured the distribution of force along each of its arms. A three armed cordelette placed in a vertical crack with the longest arm 3 feet long middle arm 2 feet long shortest arm 1 foot long showed that the shortest arm took 55% of the load, the middle arm took 27% of the load and the longest 18%. It showed that nylon and sling material cordelettes showed better results as these are more stretchier. Also as said above, if the load moves of the axis, or centre point, of the rigging then it is completly possible for only one arm to be loaded, something that wont happen to a self equalising set up. Basically the tests showed that the chordelette had no chance of equalising properly, and recommended that it only be used if the arms were on the same plane and of equal length. It should also be noted that all this is talking about extremes, the reason that you have rarely if ever heard of a chordelette failing is that climbers are never really subjected to a factor 2 fall. And that anchors are never really subjected to their maximum capacity in normal climbing. I still use chordelettes, but I like researching and knowing their strenghts and weaknesses so I have a more informed idea when I come across a different belay point. *John Long also helped design a system called a Equalette, which was also called a webolette which is basically a sliding x combined with a chordelette. and allows for a system that self equalises, has minimal extention and can have multiple arms.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 30-Jul-2008 8:36:11 AM	On 30/07/2008 foreverabumbly wrote >I like researching and knowing their strenghts and weaknesses so I have a more informed idea when I come across a different belay point. That pretty much sums it up for me. 29/07/2008 rolsen1 wrote: >On 29/07/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >>>In a nutshell (imo). Sliding-X equalisation is best left for equalising >>a dicey component arm, >> > >I've written in the new thread started by evanbb and I won't post a lengthy >post again but... > >John says in the rc thread - that he has clear evidence that cordelettes >do not work how we all assumed (and were taught) and he explains clearly >what is wrong with them. If you know there is a better way to rig a belay >why wouldn't you use it all the time and not just in dicey situations. ... because most belays are built out of solid pieces, in solid placements, and I'd expect that most of the time any one (single) piece would be adequate for the load/s likely to be encountered. To back this premise up I would suggest the 'safety rate' (track record does this) of belays NOT failing back in the days of waist belays !! By comparison, the additional pieces in a multipoint belay (imo) already build in a large amount of redundancy. Regarding cordalettes not working, I would also suggest that for most applications a progressive failure due single arms taking the load one at a time, and belay pieces pulling, is still preferable to a dicey pro belay being shock loaded after a sliding-x (limited or not), has a piece pull. To back this 2nd premise up, I suggest that the dynamic abilities of the lead rope make up for a multitude of static-belay sins(!), ie give the rope enough time to do it's thing (read introduce increased time element due progressive failure of belay here), and the overall loadings are substantially dissipated across even 'failed' anchor pieces, due the impact absorption properties of the rope. Another way of saying this, is the rate at which loads are imposed on a system can make a difference in ultimate failure load and mode. ~>Horses for courses. If you are aware of the possibilities you can engineer something reasonable most times. [... ~> and isn't this a fun aspect of climbing for techno-nerds (like me), amongst us?]. I will still use my cordalette (particularly at hanging belays on a wall). I will still use a sliding-x when required. Sometimes this will be in conjunction with each other. Btw, I very much liked your adage of having a 'Jesus piece' over on the (yet an)other thread!
rolsen1 30-Jul-2008 4:29:25 PM	On 30/07/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >Regarding cordalettes not working, I would also suggest that for most >applications a progressive failure due single arms taking the load one >at a time, and belay pieces pulling, is still preferable to a dicey pro >belay being shock loaded after a sliding-x (limited or not), has a piece >pull. > I think John Long's agrument and findings are the opposite. Given a dicey belay an equalised belay will hold more than the same belay when individually pieces are loaded. As for the suitability of a cordelette with groups when one person is leading all pitches the point I would make is that if the followers and are learning the craft then is using a suboptimal belay ok?
skink 30-Jul-2008 5:39:55 PM	On 30/07/2008 rolsen1 wrote: >Given a dicey belay an equalised belay will hold more than the same belay >when individually pieces are loaded. > >As for the suitability of a cordelette with groups when one person is >leading all pitches the point I would make is that if the followers and >are learning the craft then is using a suboptimal belay ok? Sure, go ahead and equalise dicey pieces. Even if there are beginners involved. But 95% of belays I build are from 3 bomber pieces, so equalising the load across them all seems to me to be an unnecessary complication (even suboptimal, dare I say).
IdratherbeclimbingM9 30-Jul-2008 5:44:49 PM	I think we are talking about two different facets of the same scenario rolsen1. Yes I agree that if everything is sketchy then an equalised arrangement will likely hold more than a crappo individual pieces arrangement. In many years of climbing I have not had the displeasure too often, of having to make do like that, as most belays don't require too much jiggery pokery provided you have adequate gear to hand. >suboptimal belay ? Cordalettes have stood the test of time no matter how suboptimal they are deemed today. Hey, could there be a dollar in this somewhere? Maybe I could come up with a tape equivalent of cordalette strands and make a quid or two? Maybe call it a webolette or something, and generate some discussion for publicity ... ;-) To sum up ... How overkill does the belay need to be? Anticipated force = 'x' Codalette capable of 'xx' (double the anticipated requirement say) Sliding-X capable of 'xx+' Crappo belay capable of 1/2 'x' (equalised or not) ... ~> hide it under your pack or shirt! ... ~> why are we discussing subtle degrees of overkill?? The suboptimal followers ought to learn as many different ways of setting belays as possible, because you can't have too many tricks in the bag of experience, imo. ~> could come a time when they will need to apply a less than adequate arrangement.
anthonyk 30-Jul-2008 6:06:19 PM	On 30/07/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >The suboptimal followers ought to learn as many different ways of setting >belays as possible, because you can't have too many tricks in the bag of >experience, imo. >~> could come a time when they will need to apply a less than adequate >arrangement. thats right, for example: 1. oops i didn't think to bring my cordolette 2. oh all the slings are on the route hmm i should buy more of them 3. if i take the nuts off their biner i can use it in an anchor, i can take apart this last quickdraw and i reckon i saw a rating sticker on this gear sling at some point 4. good thing i took m9's advice and learnt how to make a rope anchor. on belay! with versatility who needs planning! ;)
rolsen1 30-Jul-2008 6:09:52 PM	On 30/07/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >I think we are talking about two different facets of the same scenario >rolsen1. I'm not arguing for the sliding-x I rarely use one, I'm just arguing against the cordelette and the voice of experience that says even though there are studies that show the cordelette doesn't work I'm still gonna use it because it looks like it should work, it feels safe and I've always done it like that. If the cordelette just weights individual pieces why bother hauling it up? Tie in with the rope in, and if you feel all your pieces are bomber and weighting one at a time then don't bother trying to set up an equalised belay - just set up a system that has backups - after all we now know that shock loading aint that bad. >... ~> why are we discussing subtle degrees of overkill?? I'm not I'm arguing that we should use and/or teach a system that appears to equalise but in reality doesn't. andesite wrote; >Sure, go ahead and equalise dicey pieces. Even if there are beginners involved. > I wasn't saying that, I was saying don't teach a belay system to beginners (or anyone) which looks good but doesn't work well. As I've said before if the belay is bomber use your judgement how you rig but don't rig a system that looks like it does something it doesn't and teach it to your beginners as a quick easy system to equalise pieces. >But 95% of belays I build are from 3 bomber pieces, so equalising the load across them all seems >to me to be an unnecessary complication (even suboptimal, dare I say). I agree - so leave the cordelette at the bottom.

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