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Cordelette quandary

J Qui

4-Jun-2007
9:55:22 AM

I recently went for a climb and noticed that a guy was using his cordelette similar to a web-o-lette, having
it tied off at each end with 'snake eyes'.

I used my cordelette in the traditional style, tied off in a loop, but was wondering about the benefits of
this other method, reducing the amount of strands to deal with. Rather than purchase a web-o-lette, does
anyone see any issues with replicating the idea with 7mm cordelette rope?

gfdonc

4-Jun-2007
11:32:13 AM

Check the breaking strain of one strand of 7mm, less say 30% for the knot.
I've posted links elsewhere to a PDF writeup of cordellette tests.
Without checking, I suspect you're down around 7-8kN which might not be enough to feel safe. Two strands have enough margin.

dougal

4-Jun-2007
4:36:54 PM

very unlikely to have a one strand failure in the field but the wisdom of those with greater experience says measure everything with a worst case scenario - in this case could one strand hold a factor 2? - answer maybe/maybe not -

Dom

4-Jun-2007
5:45:42 PM

What the frugè are ‘snake eyes’??

Also; what is the accepted wisdom these days with regard to cordelette... Does anyone out there use spectra\Dyneema stuff or is the nylon gear still preferred?

pharmamatt

4-Jun-2007
6:19:03 PM

having read john long climbing anchors 2nd ed.

it sounds like cordelettes are out and equalettes are in.

i think you can get away with 'snake eyes' on dyneema webolette, 1. its stronger than 7mm static and 2. there's no knot to form the eye (it's bar tacked)

that said 7mm static is more dynamic than dyneema and would reduce peak force load on anchor placements.

billk

4-Jun-2007
6:31:13 PM

On 4/06/2007 Dom wrote:
>What the frugè are ‘snake eyes’??

The bar-tacked loops on either end of a webby

dave h.

4-Jun-2007
6:39:55 PM

*hijack*

Did anyone on this forum manage to get through that epic rockclimbing.com thread where they were talking about their equalettes, mooselettes, Gordolettes, and I-don't-know-what-else-lettes?

I know I'm still using the vanilla "one big loop" cordlette with the fig 8 or overhand knot forming the powerpoint...

If this venerable method is no longer the method of the Safe Climber, what should wannabe Safe Climbers like myself do? (Besides giving up climbing, staying on the ground, walking around wrapped in foam etc... Yes I understand that climbing can never be entirely safe and that elements of risk will remain despite all attempts undertaken to minimise risks).

Eduardo Slabofvic

4-Jun-2007
8:24:15 PM

On 4/06/2007 dave h. wrote:
>If this venerable method is no longer the method of the Safe Climber,
>what should wannabe Safe Climbers like myself do?

Take drugs.

dave h.

4-Jun-2007
9:00:22 PM

Thanks Slabby.... knew I was missing something!

pharmamatt

4-Jun-2007
10:56:31 PM

here's a link to the rc thread
sliding-x thread

it'll do yr head in trying understand it all in one go.

i haven't tried the equalette out yet (i'll give it a go this w/end) but as described in the new climbing anchors book it doesn't seem to hard and i can just reuse my cordelette with a couple of extra knots.

westie

5-Jun-2007
10:38:40 AM

Hey J,

I use 7mm Cordolette with a fig 8 at both ends tied into the outside anchor points and then slide the loop through the central anchor point (the third anchor). I then tie this off with a fig 8 and equalise the two 'doubled up' strands (four thicknesses of cordelette in your hand) and tie off with a fig 8. you can use this point as an anchor point for your rope (top-roping with two opposed crabs) or just clip into anchor with sling and crab and belay (multi-pitch). Is this what you saw with the only difference being the 'sewn' ends to the cord? is this what others do (I know there are a few variations).

steph

5-Jun-2007
11:45:20 AM

I've experimented with a few diff types or anchor cords & using the rope itself but the best & easiest to set up for me is:

7mm Cord 6m or so long (from memory) joined witha double fisherman's. Thread through bits of pro, equalise and clip in to the fig8. This is especially good when leading more than 1 person up a climb as there is less confusion and rope tangle at awkward belay stances. Having 2 cords also helps, the seconder brings 1 up and either moves on quickly to their lead if alternating, or passes it to the leader for the next pitch. Too Easy! :)

I reckon this is probably one of the cheaper methods too, some of the webolettes etc can be on the pricey side for what they are.

pat

5-Jun-2007
11:46:01 AM

I use Spectra cord. Looks about as thick as a shoelace, but its probably 5mm. I have a figure nine with a half double fisherman's stopper in each end. The shop I bought it in said that the nine was more secure because the rope is a lot stiffer. I have never had to retie them from new. I think that I remember snugging them up with a pair of pliers to get them really tight because it is hard to hold the thin cord.

I used to use the rope to build a belay on multi pitches, but using the cord has been a great change. Like it was described above, clip the eyes into the outside pieces of a three way setup and bring the middle of the cord up to form two loops. Equalise and then a figure eight or just an overhand. Great for clipping everything into. Look in the tech tips on this site.

My spectra is about four years old now and doesn't show much sign of wear. I have used it for top rope and multi pitch setups. It was a bit strange at first because the stuff looks so thin, but it is amazingly wear resistant and has really increased my efficiency at the belay.

mikl law

5-Jun-2007
12:23:17 PM

Just to put all this in perspective, I've only ever used a cordelette a few times (20?).

They are great for 2 bolt belays (especially where one person is doing all the leading and you can clip the second into the Jesus knot), and not so convenient with trad belays. Most of the times I've seen people use them, there was a major amount of slack available if there was an upwards force. It seemed to me that if you were using them, you'd probabaly have a sperate sling (or even another cordelette) to the 2 upwards force pieces.

I know that there will be people who are very thoughful in using them who will always get it right, but I'm concerned that many people think these things are the cure-all.

My belays always look like a kite crash at a bondage party, but climbing with Chris Baxter on waist belays taught me to avoid slack in belays like the plague.

Just my 22c worth

patto

5-Jun-2007
12:34:06 PM

On 4/06/2007 dave h. wrote:
>*hijack*
>
>Did anyone on this forum manage to get through that epic rockclimbing.com
>thread where they were talking about their equalettes, mooselettes, Gordolettes,
>and I-don't-know-what-else-lettes?
>
>I know I'm still using the vanilla "one big loop" cordlette with the fig
>8 or overhand knot forming the powerpoint...
>
>If this venerable method is no longer the method of the Safe Climber,
>what should wannabe Safe Climbers like myself do? (Besides giving up climbing,
>staying on the ground, walking around wrapped in foam etc... Yes I understand
>that climbing can never be entirely safe and that elements of risk will
>remain despite all attempts undertaken to minimise risks).

On 4/06/2007 Matt78 wrote:
>having read john long climbing anchors 2nd ed.
>
>it sounds like cordelettes are out and equalettes are in.
>

Yes according to John Long cordelettes are out. Without starting up all the arguments brought up in that thread, let me just say that he way overstates any issues with the cordelette.

To believe that a cordelette perfectly equalises 3 pieces of protection is wrong. But you should have known that anyway a simple feel of the tensions in the cord should tell you that. Furthermore different lengths legs add further issues to equalisation.

However unless your desperately trying to equalise 3 small RPs then I don't see that it is an issue. You would need a factor 2 fall to put anything close to 10kN on the anchor and even then the bigger issue would be actually being able to catch the fall. With 3 roughly equalised pieces you'll still get a max force little more than 5kN on one piece. The equalette etc, solves an non existent issue.

Back to the issue. I use a single strand of spectra, I think it is 5.5mm rated for 15kN. I have snake eyes in each end. When multipitching my partner often carries one as well. But even with a cordalette half the time I use the climbing rope. It all depends on the setup of the belay.

The one drawback of single strand cordelettes is that even very well equalised setups can theoretically produce TWICE the force on the middle piece as it has two strands. However for reasons stated early this is more of an issue in theory land than the real world.

J Qui

5-Jun-2007
2:27:10 PM

Westie

Yes mate, that is exactly what I saw. Same as your set up, with a fig 8 at both ends (each fig 8
clipped in to the outside anchors, and the single strand clipped through the middle anchor. This is then
drawn down to form your W (used just like a webolette), totalling four strands to equalise rather than
six strands. This variation appears to be less bulky and cumbersome to equalise and belay from...and
faster too.

I assume that you believe this variation to be just as safe?

Thanks for that Westie.

Jase

M10iswhereitsat.

5-Jun-2007
9:22:26 PM

>Climbing Dictionary Results Of Search 'cordelette '
>Sorry, no entries match your search criteria.

Oh woe is me ...

How can I hip-shake-jerk ,
if tha dictionary don werk,
an MikeyB is being an incompetent clerk

:(

There are 17 messages in this topic.