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Ukrainian cams?


wallwombat

12-Aug-2007
8:44:18 PM

Has anyone bought any of those Ukrainian cams that are selling on Ebay at the moment?

They look OK and the feedback from people who have bought them seems pretty positive.

rightarmbad

14-Aug-2007
1:58:55 AM

Go for it, your life.....


wallwombat

14-Aug-2007
3:26:40 AM

On 14/08/2007 rightarmbad wrote:
>Go for it, your life.....

No, it could be someone else's too.

Those Rockempire Robots Cams that are made in the Czech Republic get pretty good reviews. I don't think I'm taking too much of a risk buying Ukrainian ones. It's mainly to supplement the 15 or so cams I already have, which are a mix of brands.

Think I'd trust them more than some of the dodgy bolts I have clipped!


nmonteith

14-Aug-2007
9:34:12 AM

They don't look very good to me. At sub $80 for a rack of them i would be doubful about the quality
control. Only a few years ago there was cases of Alien cams breaking offf at head, the join between the
cable and the spring loaded bit at the top. The fact they don't appear to have any international
certification worries me a lot. You get what you pay for in my opinion.


wallwombat

14-Aug-2007
11:12:01 AM

I found this on rockclimbing.com . It was posted by a seppo dude who bought one of the cams and tested it. Good enough foe me

" I bought a KROK Links #3 from Petrenko last year.

I bought the unit directly from PetrenkoWorld through their eBay store. Since PayPal doesn't cover the Ukraine, funds were transferred through 2CheckOut, a similar service. Shipping took about two weeks, and the folks at Petrenko were responsive to email enquiries.

Geometrically, the Links 3 is virtually identical with the Rock Empire Comet #3. Comparing them side by side shows that the cam lobes have virtually the same profile, and about the same spacing along the axle.

As others have already posted (search rc.com on "Petrenko"), the Links units are rather rough-looking units. The cam lobes are press-sheared from plates of aluminum, and it clearly shows. The shearing operation leaves the edges pretty rough. The notches in the cams are applied after the shearing, apparently with a bandsaw or similar tool. That's one slightly odd thing about the Links - the cam lobes are notched much further around their profiles than they need to, to areas that cannot possibly contact rock.

The Links cam does not come with a sling; you must clip directly to its cable loop. On the unit I received, the cable loop was twisted so that the axis of its eye was skewed by about 20 degrees from the axle.

My unit weighed in at 128 grams, 2 grams less than the 130 g weight specification.

The cam axle consisted of an 8mm steel shaft step-turned and threaded at each end for 10-32 (no, not metric) nylon locking nuts. The cam stops consist of 3mm steel pins pressed into the opposing faces of the lobes. The cam stops also serve as the spring anchors.

The trigger pull seemed notchier than other cams I've used, but I didn't consider it objectionable. The worst of the notchiness was caused by the stop pin catching on the spring pigtail at the base of the opposing stop pin at the very start of the pull.

My pull testing suggested that the cam lobes might be softer than the lobes of other similar cams. Pull testing to 1/2 of the strength rating (7.5 kn) in a 1.75" (44.5mm) fixture left small flat spots on the lobes where the aluminum was yielded slightly. Comparison testing on the RE Comet #3 showed similar yielding, but to a smaller degree.

However, the Petrenko did seem to grip the finer-grained of my test fixtures slightly better than the Rock Empire unit. This might be due to the nature of the cam lobe material, or it might be due to the surface left by the shearing operation that forms the lobes.

Pull testing to the 15 kn rated strength of the unit showed nothing remarkable. The unit held solidly with no complaints. The only lasting result of this test was slightly increased flat-spotting of the nature observed in the 7.5kn test.

Pull testing to ultimate failure broke the unit at 16.7 kn, 111% of its rated strength. The failure mode was breakage of the stem cable where it wrapped around the cable thimble at the center of the axle. "


Paulie

14-Aug-2007
2:12:02 PM

I bought older versions of these from a gym in Sydney about 12yrs ago (they were $30- each from memory!), To sum up in 5 words - They suck, don't buy them.

I have now given them all away to unsuspecting punters :D

Paul


wallwombat

14-Aug-2007
3:35:24 PM

I bought some Russian Friends (Comrades) from Rockcraft up in Katoomba about 15 years ago. The were very light copies of forged friends. About $35 each. I found them fine in the smaller sizes. Anything above about a number 3 seemed a bit flimsy but the others were OK.

They all got stolen, so I actually hope they did fall apart.

Anyway, I bought 5 of those Ukrainian jobs. Mainly to supplement my rack for aid climbing. I don't know if they will be getting used for free climbs that often. $100 AU including postage for 5 cams. Even if they are crappy they will do as a back up for when I need lots of cams on my rack.


kezza

14-Aug-2007
3:42:45 PM

On 14/08/2007 wallwombat wrote:
>Anyway, I bought 5 of those Ukrainian jobs. Mainly to supplement my rack
>for aid climbing. I don't know if they will be getting used for free climbs
>that often. $100 AU including postage for 5 cams. Even if they are crappy
>they will do as a back up for when I need lots of cams on my rack.

Wouldn't you rather a lot of cams on your rack, and the peace of mind that you trust every single one of them? No point having a triple rack of cams, if your only placing a third of them with confidence...


HM33

14-Aug-2007
3:45:50 PM

Adam this is great.

you can use them as disposable Cams and save you 3 weekends of epics to try and retrieve gear from the next wasp infested crack you try ground up!


wallwombat

14-Aug-2007
4:02:32 PM

Kezza - Didn't you read the quote from the American guy who pull tested one of the cams to 16.7 kn before it broke. That's 111% of it's rated strength. Thats a lot!

I may have a fat arse but I think they a probably strong enough to hold it!

Steve - I was thinking exactly the same thing, although a can of Baygon may have been cheaper.

Yes, if I have to bail off something I think I'd prefer to leave one of these than a camalot. 15kn should be strong enough to abseil off. Even with my fat arse!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

15-Aug-2007
11:55:39 AM

Kezza wrote;
>Wouldn't you rather a lot of cams on your rack, and the peace of mind that you trust every single one of them? >No point having a triple rack of cams, if your only placing a third of them with confidence...

On 14/08/2007 wallwombat wrote:
>Anyway, I bought 5 of those Ukrainian jobs. Mainly to supplement my rack
>for aid climbing.

Moderate(+^) aid often only has a third of the gear trust-worthy.
If wallwomby can get a cam in (even if only two lobes) for bodyweight only placements then he is on a winner.

patto

15-Aug-2007
1:03:02 PM

On 14/08/2007 wallwombat wrote:
>Kezza - Didn't you read the quote from the American guy who pull tested
> one of the cams to 16.7 kn before it broke. That's 111% of it's rated
>strength. Thats a lot!
>
>I may have a fat arse but I think they a probably strong enough to hold
>it!
>
>Steve - I was thinking exactly the same thing, although a can of Baygon
>may have been cheaper.
>
>Yes, if I have to bail off something I think I'd prefer to leave one of
>these than a camalot. 15kn should be strong enough to abseil off. Even
>with my fat arse!

The same article I believe showed that brand name cams failed significantly higher than there rated max. (more than the 111% of the ukranian cams)

However it is not strength that is my biggest concern about these it quality control. I don't want to be climbing on cams im 98% sure will perform as intended.

As Aliens cams have showed even the more famous manufacturers can FAIL to implement decent quality control. Significant injuries have rusulted from Alien cam failure due to this.

I would not be wanting to be bailing off one of these cams if that is the only piece. That said I would trust these things before I trust Aliens.


nmonteith

15-Aug-2007
1:07:40 PM


wallwombat

15-Aug-2007
2:32:24 PM

The site I bought them off said they are tested and certified by Ukrainian National Scientific Certification in Kiev and they will send translated copies of the certification.

But I guess no one will believe that.

Anyway, I don't really care.

You should see their wall hammers. Ouch!

I gotta get one.


kezza

15-Aug-2007
4:36:53 PM

Well go ahead and buy your crazy Ukranian cams.
They are cheap yes, but how long are they going to last? How much is your life worth? Is it really worth buying cheap cams that have zero quality control? I would much rather buy from a reputable company...

Plus what happened to buying from local stores to keep them running? I'm sure I've argued this point before..


Eduardo Slabofvic

15-Aug-2007
4:53:52 PM

You might want to wave a Geiger counter in front of them before hanging them off your harness, unless
you either already have children or don’t want any.


wallwombat

15-Aug-2007
4:57:28 PM

On 15/08/2007 kezza wrote:
>Well go ahead and buy your crazy Ukranian cams.
>They are cheap yes, but how long are they going to last? How much is your
>life worth? Is it really worth buying cheap cams that have zero quality
>control? I would much rather buy from a reputable company...

I don't really want to get into a shit fight about this but how the hell do you know they have 'zero quality control'?

And what makes you presume they aren't 'a reputable company'?

Is it because it is a Ukrainian company rather than and American company or an British company?

mmmm.....I smell parochialism.

I have done a pretty thorough search of all the major climbing sites and forums and have found no negative feedback from anyone who has bought these cams.

I have read a lot of unfounded negative press from people who have never set eyes on one of these cams.

As for the issue of supporting local stores. I do support local stores but if those stores don't have what I want or charge over-the-top prices for what I want, I will look elsewhere. In case you haven't noticed the range of available gear on offer, over here, compared to the States and Europe is very limited. Also the prices are very expensive - even the cheap prices are quite expensive when compared to those overseas.

If I want a pair of aiders and I want ,say, Yates Wall Ladders, then I'm going to get them. I'm not going to get a pair of Black Diamond aiders instead, purely because they are the brand stores in Australia generally stock.

In Australia we have the choice of around a dozen different ice axes. Now if I'm going to buy an ice axe then I'm going to buy the axe I want. If that means getting it shipped from the US, Europe or Kamp-friggin-chakta, then I'm going to get it shipped. I don't want a bloody BD Raven.

I buy everything I can here but somethings I can't buy here. End of story.

By the way, I do have BD aiders and I like them fine. I was just using them as an example.


nmonteith

15-Aug-2007
5:11:51 PM

On 15/08/2007 wallwombat wrote:
>The site I bought them off said they are tested and certified by Ukrainian
>National Scientific Certification in Kiev and they will send translated
>copies of the certification.

Im not expert on this, but as far as im aware there is a European standard for testign climbing gear,
this is the CE stamp you see on most gear (this may have changed to UIAA in recent years?). The
fact that this company doesn't get it tested in accordence with this world standard is the major worry.
What is the Ukrainian National Scientific Certification? It sounds like the Ponds Institue to me.
Anyone can create a dummy company or pay someone for the right piece of paper, espeically in
countries like the Ukranie which are beset with corruption! What other 'quality' products come out of
the Ukrane?

To me its the same as buying D-shackles from the hardware store as opposed to proper carbiners.
One is made in china with no quality control, the other is designed and interntionaly tested for
climbing.

It's your life afterall...

You have obviously made up your mind about these cams before you asked the question on this
forum so im not sure why you asked. We've given you plenty of reasons why they might not be the
ideal product...


nmonteith

15-Aug-2007
5:16:43 PM

p.s. - there is probabaly a good reason why no-one wholesales or retails them in Australia! No-one is
willing to have to deal with the complaints.


GravityHound

15-Aug-2007
5:43:47 PM

On 14/08/2007 wallwombat wrote:
>
>Yes, if I have to bail off something I think I'd prefer to leave one of
>these than a camalot.

If I have to bail off something I would prefer to leave something that I know actually works, has been subjected to QA and has less chance of failing when I am halfway down a rap. A hundred bucks is a small price to pay for yours (or someone elses) life.

> Didn't you read the quote from the American guy who pull tested one of the cams to 16.7 kn before it broke. That's 111% of it's rated strength.

Who is this guy who tested them (I couldnt find the article)? How big was the sample he tested? He could have fluked one that was above the rating. He could have made the entire thing up. This is posted on a website forum. The credibility isn't the best.

There is a chance that they are OK. Also, instead of focussing on one post that says they are OK, look at the other opinions as well on rockclimbing.com. You do seem to have made up your mind but hopefully not too staunchly to change it. But then again, it is your life not mine............

There are 154 messages in this topic.