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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

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trad + grigri

widewetandslippery

2-Mar-2012
2:14:40 PM

Hey, I aided it shouldn't he?

Linze

2-Mar-2012
4:45:48 PM

On 1/03/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 1/03/2012 rightarmbad wrote:
>>Sounds to me like M9 and co have already successfully belayed heavier
>climbers
>>on the route in question.
>>You already own them a cam each.
>>
>I reckon those big cams are pretty safe. Kieran and M9 hanging out at
>P.C.?.................probably not.

the offer stands tho... and people have gone to far greater extremes to salvage far lesser gear...

mikllaw

2-Mar-2012
5:02:14 PM

On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>lets settle it with a challenge. if any of the "you should review your
>belay technique"ers can sucessfully stop a singificantly heavier climber
>falling off the crux clip on attack mode from touching the ground,say,
>three times on the trot, i will buy you a number 6 camalot...

I saw Ness belaying Rob Hodyl on Bryzance at Hartley vale rd, the first bolt is at 3m and you clip the second with your feet at the first. Rob climbed up till the second bolt was at his knees and started wobbling. He reached down to grab the draw as he fell. Ness noticed that he was now holding the draw in his hand and stepped back and took in. He landed about 100 mm off the deck. Nice catch. Rob was sure the bolt had failed, but then noticed it was still there and he'd unclipped it as he grabbed it. She had the advantage of being on the edge of a step so she could step down as she took in, she was using a belay plate. A grigri woudl have worked ok too.

After

Linze

2-Mar-2012
5:27:07 PM

On 2/03/2012 mikllaw wrote:
>On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>>lets settle it with a challenge. if any of the "you should review your
>>belay technique"ers can sucessfully stop a singificantly heavier climber
>>falling off the crux clip on attack mode from touching the ground,say,
>>three times on the trot, i will buy you a number 6 camalot...
>
>I saw Ness belaying Rob Hodyl on Bryzance at Hartley vale rd, the first
>bolt is at 3m and you clip the second with your feet at the first. Rob
>climbed up till the second bolt was at his knees and started wobbling.
>He reached down to grab the draw as he fell. Ness noticed that he was now
>holding the draw in his hand and stepped back and took in. He landed about
>100 mm off the deck. Nice catch. Rob was sure the bolt had failed, but
>then noticed it was still there and he'd unclipped it as he grabbed it.
>She had the advantage of being on the edge of a step so she could step
>down as she took in, she was using a belay plate. A grigri woudl have worked
>ok too.
>
respect indeed... a (far heavier) climbing partner and i once decided that a ground fall was a good chance there and stick clipped the second (but still claimed the send even though clipping was probably the crux). That was before my recklessness became the modus operandi of my climbing life... ;)

fun route btw, wish it were longer...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Mar-2012
8:24:18 PM

On 2/03/2012 Olbert wrote:
>On 1/03/2012 rightarmbad wrote:
>>Sounds to me like M9 and co have already successfully belayed heavier climbers
>>on the route in question.
>>You already own them a cam each.
>>
>
>Are you kidding me? I'm pretty sure M9 has never been near Attack Mode,
>it would be an anathema to him.

Olbert is on the money(!), ... though I have often belayed heavier climbers than myself, so my previous post comment was not entirely tongue in cheek.

Olbert

5-Mar-2012
9:32:42 AM

On 4/03/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 2/03/2012 Olbert wrote:
>>On 1/03/2012 rightarmbad wrote:
>>>Sounds to me like M9 and co have already successfully belayed heavier
>climbers
>>>on the route in question.
>>>You already own them a cam each.
>>>
>>
>>Are you kidding me? I'm pretty sure M9 has never been near Attack Mode,
>>it would be an anathema to him.
>
>Olbert is on the money(!), ... though I have often belayed heavier climbers
>than myself, so my previous post comment was not entirely tongue in cheek.

I would like to point out that that was my first use of the word 'anathema' and had to confirm it's meaning with a dictionary before I posted.


sliamese

5-Mar-2012
5:27:55 PM

so i still dont get it, what does the weight of a belayer have to do with the device they use and their ability to stop a groundfall?? im a bumbly at heart so need it explained....

as for new/inexperienced belayers; studies have shown that the majority will let go of the rope if they experience a significant upwards force(pulled off the ground). hence guides use back up belayers not attached to the system....

rightarmbad

5-Mar-2012
10:24:28 PM

I don't want anybody whose instinct is to let go of the rope belaying me.

One Day Hero

6-Mar-2012
12:18:59 AM

On 5/03/2012 sliamese wrote:
>
>as for new/inexperienced belayers; studies have shown that the majority
>will let go of the rope if they experience a significant upwards force(pulled
>off the ground).

Really? I've never seen it.

I actually get pretty scared when people who've only ever belayed on an atc switch over to a gri gri......they seem to do the very bad things for about the first 3 sessions.

As long as I trust the person holding the rope, I don't care about the device. If I don't trust the person holding the rope, I don't care about the device.

mikllaw

6-Mar-2012
6:44:48 AM

Linze

6-Mar-2012
11:17:20 AM

On 5/03/2012 sliamese wrote:
>so i still dont get it, what does the weight of a belayer have to do with
>the device they use and their ability to stop a groundfall??
>
at the point of actual catch it seems nothing, in the moments prior, quite possibly something...when you are really tiny you have to do more than a heavier person to get the same result, if your belay device of choice makes some tasks easier - ie taking/giving slack - then its making a difference in my mind. if i was in situation where the belay was marginal i would be reaching for the gri gri because i know it gives me better rope handling than the atc...marginal situations are slightly more common when you are tiny

Wendy

6-Mar-2012
11:59:09 AM

On 6/03/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 5/03/2012 sliamese wrote:
>>
>>as for new/inexperienced belayers; studies have shown that the majority
>>will let go of the rope if they experience a significant upwards force(pulled
>>off the ground).
>
>Really? I've never seen it.

Happens at work all the time. Even with the tiny bit of upwards pull from a top rope system and no shortage of reinforcing the importance of holding the break end, kiddies let go of the rope. Mind you, they also let go of the rope to point out holds and take pictures. Teenage hormones get in the way of mental function. I love back up belayers. Even then I've been known to dash across the crag to grab a rope. You know what happens if both teenagers let go of the rope? All the slack between the belay devices gets pulled through and the kiddies crash together. Rope locks off though. Kids learn lesson.

Back on the original subject(s) - if I'm climbing on a single rope, I use a cinch. trad, sport, whatever. it's fine.

Falling on gear is completely fine. Perfectly safe. Do it as much as you want, as long as you actually know how to place it. Helps if you're quite good at removing it as well.

Sub 45kg is ridiculously light. Even being nearly 10kg more than that, i do get a little nervous in some situations when belaying and do a little bit of contemplating where the best place to dive if my partner comes off is. Having said that, no one has hit the ground from pulling me up before. I don't think multiple occasions of nearly hitting the ground or touching the ground gently is OK, simply because, that's a lot of really nearly actually hitting the deck hard. You can keep gambling on it working out, but I'd still say it's an unreasonably high chance of it happening eventually. We are tallking a matter of cms. One day it is going to happen. And the grigri is not going to stop it. What is going to stop it, is working out how to manage the weight difference.

I don't like being tied down to belay. I rarely do it. But i will if falling low down on a route is likely and I'm going to struggle to catch someone before the ground. I'll usually go for something clipped reasonably snuggly to my haul loop unless there's a potential anchor perfectly positioned beneath my preferred belaying stance that works with the tie in point. I don't want to fly a metre into the air before getting pulled up by my anchor. The amount of give in the system is more than adequate to give a soft catch regardless - it's not like you are pulling up on the anchor whilst belaying. I unclip as soon as I think it's safe to do so. i also try and position myself ready to step/squat down when someone falls, so there's already less up action to be had.

But sometimes it's best just to get someone else to belay. Or get on a different route. But generally speaking, i would expect there to be far less of an issue in trad, because you can place enough gear to stop it being an issue. if you're slumping onto gear above your waist, you aren't going to hit the ground. if you can't hang around to place the amount of gear necessary, reconsider the route you are on. It's all just about making good judgements for the situation really.

kieranl

6-Mar-2012
12:06:18 PM

Another solution for dodgy clips close to the ground is to use double ropes. There's no law that says you can't do that on a sport climb. It's actually suggested practice on some routes (e.g. Living With A Hernia). Providing the route is less than half the length of your rope you can use the two ends of your rope and sort it out at the anchor.
* post-edit * That would require a device other than a grigri and a belayer efficient in using it with double ropes which is an skill in itself.

There are 73 messages in this topic.