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Best micro cam - morphed - Alien strength WARNING

rod

4-Jun-2009
5:12:54 PM

On 3/06/2009 Wendy wrote:
>I have this theory that aliens are so popular because they were for years
>the only micro cam with a narrow head on the market and we all got used
>to them and loved them and we can't quite let go yet! The other micro
>cams are really very good and in some ways better (quality and durability
>for example). The main selling point of the aliens (other than familiarity)
>for me is that they are lighter. I can't quite work out why else we love
>them over the others,

I had the C3's first and then added Aliens to the rack, jump tested they hold better in certain rock and placements which I presume is because of the softer metal.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

5-Jun-2009
11:22:35 AM

On 3/06/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>I recently bought the four smallest sized Master Cams. I'm really pleased
>with them.
>
>I would like to buy the two smallest C3 to complement them.
>
Those are here still ...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

5-Jun-2009
11:35:02 AM

On 4/06/2009 gfdonc wrote:
>One thing I've noticed with the Aliens - but not aware this is a "known"
>issue - is that they can sometimes hang on two cams. The relative stiffness/friction
>in the trigger wire as compared to the spring tension means that depending
>on how you place it, one of the pairs of cams can be retracted more than
>the other and not automatically "snap back". (sorry no photo)
>
>Scary when you see it for the first time, especially after climbing past
>it. Anyone else noticed this?
>
Are your trigger stems still straight, or are they bent ?

I have found that if the stems get significantly and repeatedly bent (like in aid usage), that the trigger action can stiffen up, ... such that lobes become stiffer in their action, with the potential to 'hang'. It is easily cured by flexing the stem-cable back to a straighter alignment again.

I really like my hybrid aliens (have doubles), and use the three smaller sizes regularly.
Some have taken falls and have held with only two lobes engaged ...
Others have blown the rock placement I had them in, though only on two lobes at the time...
I am a convert to the extent that I now often carry a couple of them on my 'free' rack, though find the geen/yellow gets more use in that application than the black/blue, or blue/green.

gfdonc

5-Jun-2009
12:15:03 PM

I keep hearing lots of success stories with Aliens holding on two cams. It does help to build confidence.
I need to research this issue some more (maybe with photos) to show what I mean. Basically if you squeeze all 4 cams closed, then hold two of them closed with your finger and let go of the trigger, the other two don't open very well, if at all. This is not IMHO due to wear and tear, but have been like that from when they were purchased.

I first noticed this on the traverse on p2 of Oceanoid, after placing a yellow Alien in a horizontal there. A suitable place to be alarmed about the performance of your cams!

one day hero

5-Jun-2009
8:31:03 PM

On 3/06/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>
>My favourite micro cam, is still an old HB micro with a brass head. It's
>the same size as a 0 Mastercam and it rocks.

Gaa, I hate those f---ing things! Bought one to do Ozy and could not get it to stick anywhere on the
whole route, then it nearly killed my mate when it slid through a meter of perfect crack on Child in
Time....thank god the next piece down was an Alien and not another HB piece of shit.

Zero's are the poor man's Alien. C3's seem to be pretty similar to metolius tcu's (which I really
like)....maybe the C3's are even an improvement. Mastercams are probably pretty good given that
metolius make quality stuff.

If I had to take a big whip onto a small cam in smooth rock (araps or frog) I would want it to be an
alien, they just stick better.

Hey Wallwombat, you wanna buy another HB cam. I've got one for sale, 10 yrs old, 1 owner, much
attempted use but only really found a spot for it once, never held a fall :) Ummm, 20 bucks? Better
yet,
just buy me a beer and it's yours

patto

5-Jun-2009
9:43:04 PM

Everybody has their favorite cams. But lets try to not let our biases go too nuts.

On 5/06/2009 one day hero wrote:
>
>Zero's are the poor man's Alien.
Considering that Zero's cost more than Aliens this doesn't make sense.

>C3's seem to be pretty similar to metolius
C3s and metolius are at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to holding power/range

>>
>If I had to take a big whip onto a small cam in smooth rock (araps or
>frog) I would want it to be an
>alien, they just stick better.
Aliens are exactly the wrong type of cam for smooth rock. They have the lowest holding power and their soft lobes don't give much advantage on smooth surfaces.

Aliens definately have their advantages but they have alot of disadvantages too. And their quality control is shocking. Brand new recently produced aliens breaking at 65% of its rated strength. No thanks!

One Day Hero

10-Jun-2009
1:42:35 AM

On 5/06/2009 patto wrote:
>Everybody has their favorite cams. But lets try to not let our biases
>go too nuts.
>
>On 5/06/2009 one day hero wrote:
>>
>>Zero's are the poor man's Alien.
>Considering that Zero's cost more than Aliens this doesn't make sense.
>
>>C3's seem to be pretty similar to metolius
>C3s and metolius are at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes
>to holding power/range
>
>>>
>>If I had to take a big whip onto a small cam in smooth rock (araps or
>>frog) I would want it to be an
>>alien, they just stick better.
>Aliens are exactly the wrong type of cam for smooth rock. They have the
>lowest holding power and their soft lobes don't give much advantage on
>smooth surfaces.
>
>Aliens definately have their advantages but they have alot of disadvantages
>too. And their quality control is shocking. Brand new recently produced
>aliens breaking at 65% of its rated strength. No thanks!

Zero's may cost more, but they don't work as good. Why anyone would prefer them is beyond me.

Regarding TCU's and C3's.....Holding power? Range? Do you mean breaking strength and expansion range? Breaking strength has never bothered me with these things, most failures seem to be slide outs rather than snaps. Is there a noticable difference beween the ranges of tiny cams? I was refering more to the 3 lobes and the type of spots they'll go into, than the numbers on the brochure.

Regarding Aliens......again with the "holding power" Do you mean breaking strength or have there been test results published for how well cams stick? Your claim that aliens are wrong for smooth rock worries me. Have you had direct experience of aliens sliding out of smooth placements where other brands held? I have had direct experience of aliens holding in the exact same spot where other brands (WC, HB) slid out.

The sub-par breaking strength sounds a bit suss, not that I'm too worried about it.....65% is still plenty strong enough for my needs (several whips have still not broken my #1 wire which has 4kn stamped on it). Remember, breaking strength is meaningless if the little f---er fails to stick!


mattjr

10-Jun-2009
8:20:11 AM

I noticed more bad press for Aliens on Rockclimbing.com yesterday

fish boy

10-Jun-2009
10:10:12 AM

Buy as many different types as you can...C3's in pin scars, TCU's poked into granite flakes, aliens twisted into araps slots....they all work.

widewetandslippery

10-Jun-2009
10:12:40 AM

Or you can always buy a drill.....

james

10-Jun-2009
12:57:36 PM

I like aliens, I have a few & have taken a few decent falls on them. zeros suck. The BD were good but the only thing I didn't like is they are not as flexible in some directions as aliens. I'd buy more aliens given the choice.


ado_m

10-Jun-2009
2:17:03 PM

C3s, while nice and narrow, have a tough to pull trigger and mine are really stiff after only a couple of years of service.

The mastercam is solid as.

Aliens are the best to place, but not sure how well they last.

fish boy

10-Jun-2009
2:58:46 PM

Aliens are a little too floppy for those placements that need the cam fiddled in a lot, like in aid. This is why zero's are not always awesome. Metolious rock I find in granite in these situations...

ymmv


IdratherbeclimbingM9

10-Jun-2009
3:05:38 PM

On 10/06/2009 fish boy wrote:
>Aliens are a little too floppy for those placements that need the cam fiddled in a lot, like in aid.

?
I find they either go or they don't.
If there is any fiddling, it is more to do with retrieval. Particularly if they are over-cammed and the placement is skinny preventing a nut hook from reaching the trigger wires if necessary.


ajfclark

10-Jun-2009
3:49:31 PM

Video discussing the design of C3s and another discussing pull testing of BD cams (C4s and C3s).

patto

10-Jun-2009
4:53:48 PM

On 10/06/2009 One Day Hero wrote:
>Zero's may cost more, but they don't work as good. Why anyone would prefer them is beyond me.
So now you admit they cost more? A second ago they were a poor man's cam, make up your mind. Sure you don't like zeros, thats your opinion and it differs from my opinion. But as I said I'm not getting into a fight about which brand is better.

>Regarding TCU's and C3's.....Holding power? Range? Do you mean breaking
>strength and expansion range? Breaking strength has never bothered me with
>these things, most failures seem to be slide outs rather than snaps. Is
>there a noticable difference beween the ranges of tiny cams? I was refering
>more to the 3 lobes and the type of spots they'll go into, than the numbers
>on the brochure.
Holding power and range is always a trade off. By holding power I mean the outwards force produced by the cam in order to maintain friction. Metolius have the largest outwards force. If you don't understand this then I question your understanding of how cams opperate.

>Regarding Aliens......again with the "holding power" Do you mean breaking
>strength or have there been test results published for how well cams stick?
>Your claim that aliens are wrong for smooth rock worries me. Have you had
>direct experience of aliens sliding out of smooth placements where other
>brands held? I have had direct experience of aliens holding in the exact
>same spot where other brands (WC, HB) slid out.
I don't climb on aliens nor do I want to. Tests show that aliens definately do slip out of cracks where most other cams hold. Check rockclimbing.com. Though as said before for textured cracks the soft alien lobes can be an advantage.

>
>The sub-par breaking strength sounds a bit suss, not that I'm too worried
>about it.....65% is still plenty strong enough for my needs (several whips
>have still not broken my #1 wire which has 4kn stamped on it). Remember,
>breaking strength is meaningless if the little f---er fails to stick!
>
As I said this is a quality control issue. I'm less worried about the 65% cams I'm more worried about the QC or lack thereof that this implies. This is the same company that denied a problem for a long time before finally issuing a recall when cams started breaking at 1-2kN.

But I'm not going to change your biases. I'm just rebutting some of the original misleading statements. Keep climbing on Aliens if you want, but do yourself a favour and make sure your informed.

bl@ke

10-Jun-2009
4:57:49 PM

Good videos.
i found the trigger pull on the c3s was heavy but the video explained that. will get to check out some cams this weekend at bogong must put a post in the stoked thread for that, Im excited!

one day hero

10-Jun-2009
10:55:55 PM

On 10/06/2009 patto wrote:
>So now you admit they cost more? A second ago they were a poor man's
>cam, make up your mind.

Why would I argue with you about which cam costs more? Call up a shop and ask.
It's figure of speech, I feel that WC were trying to design a cam that performed like an alien. I feel that their design is similar to but poorer than the alien......poor man's alien.
>
>Holding power and range is always a trade off. By holding power I mean
>the outwards force produced by the cam in order to maintain friction.
>Metolius have the largest outwards force. If you don't understand this
>then I question your understanding of how cams opperate.

You say holding power, I say cam angle.....now that you've defined your terminology I understand what you were going on about, problem solved.
Metolius reduced their cam angle a few years back (by a whopping 3ish%) My metolius cams are from before this time so in fact they do not have this property.
>
>I don't climb on aliens nor do I want to. Tests show that aliens definately
>do slip out of cracks where most other cams hold. Check rockclimbing.com.
> Though as said before for textured cracks the soft alien lobes can be
>an advantage.

Checked out seppo climbing site, tests in steel crack (I saw 2, have more been done or is this the sample size?) show bending of axle and busting braze, there was some talk of slipping but I didn't see any vids (are they there?). Not sure I take this over my own, unscientific tests in rock cracks. The shit brazing job is bad, can't deny that and wouldn't try to. Hope there's serious quality control being added at CCH.
>>
>As I said this is a quality control issue. I'm less worried about the
>65% cams I'm more worried about the QC or lack thereof that this implies.
> This is the same company that denied a problem for a long time before
>finally issuing a recall when cams started breaking at 1-2kN.

Look here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVODYx2dCQI&feature=related, to watch a BD camalot bust at 75% of rated strength (digi readout is in pounds). Camalots are therefore shit. Black Diamond's quality control is suspect, we cannot trust any of their products.........actually, watching this video did not make me worry at all about my camalots, maybe I don't worry enough.
>
>But I'm not going to change your biases. I'm just rebutting some of the
>original misleading statements. Keep climbing on Aliens if you want, but
>do yourself a favour and make sure your informed.

I noticed you are leading the CCH witch hunt on that seppo site too. I've used all the brands I've talked about in order to form my opinions. How can you have an opinion about how aliens handle if you refuse to try them?


ajfclark

11-Jun-2009
10:10:11 AM

On 10/06/2009 one day hero wrote:
>Look here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVODYx2dCQI , to watch a BD camalot bust at 75% of rated strength (digi readout is in pounds).

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison with the alien failures as that's a U-stem camalot not something resembling the current generation.

Paul

11-Jun-2009
10:30:23 AM

On 10/06/2009 one day hero wrote:
>On 10/06/2009 patto wrote:

>Look here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVODYx2dCQI&feature=related,
>to watch a BD camalot bust at 75% of rated strength (digi readout is in
>pounds). Camalots are therefore shit. Black Diamond's quality control is
>suspect, we cannot trust any of their products.........actually, watching
>this video did not make me worry at all about my camalots, maybe I don't
>worry enough.

The cam in that test looks like it has seen a fair bit of use going by the scratches on the triggers. Could it be possible that it might have some existing damage or wear which has happened since its manufacture?

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