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Arapiles accident Saturday 09/02/2008

kieranl

12-Feb-2008
1:01:52 PM

On 12/02/2008 dalai wrote:
>Since details haven't been confirmed, it may be premature to criticize
>the calling of the helicopter...
I find the concept of blaming people for calling for help quite bizarre and somewhat offensive to the people involved.
Yes people should be self-reliant and able to self-rescue but self-rescue carries its own risks, not least of which is exacerbating any injuries.
But I'm not going to presume to tell someone that their level of injury or pain is not enough to warrant calling for a rescue when that is feasible. My experience is that climbers are reluctant to call for rescue and only do it because they need it.
As for calling a helicopter, that is done by emergency services, not by the party needing rescue. In general these days a helicopter will be called at the outset to rescues at Arapiles to minimise the time before one arrives. If you are seriously injured you really want to be in the chopper and on your way to Melbourne.
Initially the local paramedics seemed to treat the chopper as the panacea and were trying to get people winched out of all situations but things seem to be settling down in that regard. I won't necessarily agree with every choice made by the chopper paramedics but they're trying to balance the risk to the patient, the risk to the paramedic on the cable and the rsik to rescuers on the ground.

Wendy

12-Feb-2008
2:36:14 PM

Anyone scouring the local paper will have noticed the current uproar about only having one afterhours paramedic in Horsham. I had to ring an ambulance for an attempted suicide at my work in the week and because the nearest available ambulance was in Dimboola, emergency services rang back and asked if we were able to drive the client to the hospital! It seems like the emergency services (actually, lets face it, health and welfare services in general) in the Wimmera are in need of some more basic improvements before a helicopter, but i like the idea of training paramedics to access victims on the cliff. At the moment, any care available on the cliff is by first aiders from ARG. Still, it's possible someone has looked at what proportion of paramedic work climbing rescue is (very small) and decided it wasn't the best spending of resources.

mars

12-Feb-2008
3:09:27 PM

Keiran is right. Emergency services calls in the chopper as they did when we required assistance in the Northern Gramps. The paramedics told us a chopper was coming due to the difficulty of access rather than the extent of injuries.

Fizz

12-Feb-2008
3:30:37 PM

Firstly, If the helicopter is availiable in Bendigo at the time of an incident at Mt Arapiles, there is a fair chance it will be put in the air and sent towards the Mount (This is due to mechanism of injury...blah,blah,blah). It's better to have one in the area and not needed than a ground crew turn up and decide they do. As for getting yourself, in a private vehicle, to hospital. If you can 100% guarantee that yourself and or the injured party does not have a unstable spinal fracture, then go right ahead. I however have never seen anybody at the mount with an x-ray machine, let alone carried to the base of the crag!

On 12/02/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Before we start petitioning people to get a chopper based in the Wimmera,
>shouldn’t we first decide on
>what the health care and community safety priorities are for the community
>then spend money on the
>highest priorities first.

Who do you think should decide on these priorities. The local Medical Practioners who stand to make the most from allocation of funds, or members of the communities who demand the highest possible care for their family and friends? Although the Wimmera Base Hospital(WBH) is one of the best Regional Trauma Centres in Victoria, it is not even close to the standard of the Major Trauma Centres of the Alfred or the Royal Melbourne. No amount of funds thrown at the WBH will change this, for several reasons that I will not go into now.

On 12/02/2008 kieranl wrote:
>Eduardo is quite right. Estimated cost of maintaining a rescue chopper
>in Western Vic is about $10 million per year. Given that:
>1. Any western Vic chopper is likely to be located near Warrnambool rather
>than Horsham and
Hamilton would be the place of choice, but due to number of days of poor flying conditions per year due to low cloud this would not be practical. Warrnambool is not the sensible option due to losing 180 degrees of coverage area due to the ocean (there are very few incidents that require Search & Rescue each year in that part of the Southern Ocean).
>2. I am not aware of any major incident at Arapiles over the last few
>years where a helicopter was not available if needed.
Maybe so, but I can think of one very recent incident where HEMS3 (Bendigo) was not availiable nor 495 (Melb. based) and 496 (Melb. Police helicopter) had to be taken back to Essendon and refitted for Air Amb. duties which resulted in a lengthy delay in the extrication of the Patient. The other thing to remember is that a helicopter would not be there only to service accidents at arapiles. In the past 10 days a helicopter has been used twice to ferry critically injured patient to Melb. from SW of the Mount.
>You would have to think that the money could be better spent.
>A helicopter is just a transport option.
Not sure if the Paramedics onboard the Helicopters would agree with you there. They are the most highly trained in the state and can treat a patient to a higher level than most (most, not all) of the Medical Officers in Emergency at WBH on any given day. Especially this time of year when they are all fresh out of Uni.
>We could spend $10 million a
>year but there's no guarantee that it will be available when it's really
>needed. If there's a rescue at sea off Warrnambool and a climber with head
>injuries at Arapiles were's the chopper going to be?
This would be the case if the helicopter was based at the base of Mt Arapiles. There is no guarantee that a road ambulance is available at any given time either.
>Maybe you could spend a couple of hundred thou training the paramedics
>in the region so that they are qualified to be lowered to a patient on
>a cliff-face?
I agree with you here, but it does open a huge can of worms. This is a subject I have looked into extensively over the past 18 mnths and some progress has been made, unfortunately bugger all. The idea of training members of ARG to a higher level of First aid is also on the drawing board but as with any government body, change is hard and slow. There is a general shortage of Paramedics in the Wimmera, which should be addressed first.


Eduardo Slabofvic

12-Feb-2008
3:47:51 PM

On 12/02/2008 Fizz wrote:
>Who do you think should decide on these priorities. The local Medical
>Practioners who stand to make the most from allocation of funds, or members
>of the communities who demand the highest possible care for their family
>and friends? Although the Wimmera Base Hospital(WBH) is one of the best
>Regional Trauma Centres in Victoria, it is not even close to the standard
>of the Major Trauma Centres of the Alfred or the Royal Melbourne. No amount
>of funds thrown at the WBH will change this, for several reasons that I
>will not go into now.
>
>There is a general shortage of Paramedics in the Wimmera, which should be addressed first.

That sounds like a priority. How was it developed?

Fizz

12-Feb-2008
4:06:16 PM

On 12/02/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>
>That sounds like a priority. How was it developed?

Stats.
Air Amb and road crew are 2 seperate Gov. bodies. Both independent of each other in regards to funding.
>There is a general shortage of Paramedics in the Wimmera, which should be addressed first.
This statement was in regards to training of Paramedics in cliff rescue. Which is why it was placed under that quote.

Brendo

12-Feb-2008
10:36:41 PM

To the rumor mill:

Before you get too worked up on the "bumbly" this and that who did something stupid and blah blah blah.

Show some consideration and don't talk when you don't know.

The accident. That was me. I fracture dislocated my talus quite severely. There was concern over the status of my back and neck considering the fall was between 10 and 12 meters. However, I sustained no further injuries beyond the foot. I feel no need to defend my competence. I appreciate the efforts of all those involved. For any who may have helped and are reading this, I can't thank you enough.

For any who are so terribly interested in what happened so they can run away with speculation and accusation on the incorrect techniques and foolishness and bumblieness and etc... Too bad.

I'll climb again another day. In fact as soon as I get off the bloody crutches it should be Frog season.

Climb hard climb safe climb for yourself and f--- all the rest.

simey

13-Feb-2008
12:23:28 AM

On 12/02/2008 Brendo wrote:
>... I feel no need to defend my competence.

Because you haven't explained what happened, it is fair to assume you have f---ed up. You (or your belayer) must have made a few mistakes for you to hit the ground from 10 to 12 metres on Chinese Algebra.

I'm not saying that I don't make mistakes. Almost all climbers make some mistakes in their climbing career. Fortunately most of us live through them. I also know that even after 22 years of climbing I'm not immune from stuffing up.

If I was you I would be less concerned about what other people think and worry more about what led to your accident. Your experience might also help others.

Hope you mend okay.

patto

13-Feb-2008
12:43:37 AM

On 12/02/2008 Brendo wrote:
>To the rumor mill:
....

Glad to hear the injury isn't too severe. Good luck on getting back to climbing. Oh and make sure you DON'T get shoulder length crutches. Trust me, elbow length ones are 100x better.

And don't be too annoyed at all the speculation. It is natural for people to be curious. Recognise that the sight of a medic being dropped from a helicopter is kind of exciting and people will want to know who what where and why. In the absence of information, speculation will result.

The questioning and surprise of the use of a helicopter is no slight on you. Some just see it as possibly unecessary. But we don't really know the details do we?

Fish Boy

13-Feb-2008
9:39:06 AM

I like your last name, Brendon.

thisrod

14-Feb-2008
4:23:31 PM

I was a member of the accident party, and saw the whole rescue. Thanks to the air and ground ambulances, rangers, SES and ARG members and climbers who participated. Here's what happened.

Around lunchtime Saturday, Brendo was leading Chinese Algebra. He slipped off the crux, the top piece pulled out, and two nuts below and to the right of it zippered. It happened the way every anchor textbook describes. He fell about 10m to the ground, landed on his feet, and rolled.

We, the three uninjured climbers in the party, did a primary survey of Brendo's injuries. All we found was a dislocated ankle. He was too sore for further examination, so we could not exclude a spinal injury. We chose to keep him still and call triple zero, expecting an ambulance to bring morphine, a cervical collar and a solid stretcher in about 20 minutes.

I met the ambulance near Castle Crag. The paramedics advised me that a helicopter was coming, and asked whether I thought it necessary. I pointed out where Brendo was, and said that it would be easy to carry him down on a stretcher. They called to cancel the helicopter, but their dispatcher wanted them to inspect the patient and the terrain first hand. When they saw the boulders at the bottom of Voodoo Gully, they worried that someone else would be injured in a stretcher carry, and asked the chopper to continue. Later, other rescuers opined that the wind and Brendo's proximity to Voodoo Wall would prevent the chopper from winching him out. No one pressed the issue.

Brendo was considerably more comfortable when the helicopter arrived. The crew lowered a paramedic, who moved Brendo away from the cliff to a spot where they could attempt to raise him in a harness. The chopper returned, and the crew attempted to lower a cable, but they soon gave up and left. The SES then put Brendo in a stretcher, and eight lifters carried him to the road without further drama.

(Edit: fix formatting)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Feb-2008
4:32:12 PM

Welcome to Chockstone and thank you for the further feedback thisrod.

>slipped off the crux, the top piece pulled out, and two nuts below and to the right of it zippered. >It happened the way every anchor textbook describes.

?
We tend to be a curious lot*.
In the interest of hopefully preventing further similar mishap, could you help us to better understand why pieces pulled out and/or zippered?

Another worthwhile thing to do if you feel so inclined, would be to contact the Australian Accident Register to help them with their statistics ~ The thread link to them is on this 'page' (but not this 'thread').

:)

[* I echo what simey wrote above ie]
>I'm not saying that I don't make mistakes. >Almost all climbers make some mistakes in their climbing career. >Fortunately most of us live through them. >I also know that even after 22 years of climbing I'm not immune from stuffing up.

>If I was you I would be less concerned about what other people think and worry more about what led to your accident. >Your experience might also help others.

:)
:)


cruze

14-Feb-2008
8:57:26 PM

Having taken a nasty spill a few years back MTBing in the Blueys (ended up with four fractured vertebrae T2-T5) I must say that when shit happens don't second guess the strategy that the rescuers take. Those guys are seriously well trained individuals. This is just another reminder that climbing ain't no "jog around the tan".

I hope Brendo gets well soon. Chinese Algebra is a fantastic route. Look forward to hearing him getting back to full strength and shaking the monkey off his back.


Sabu

14-Feb-2008
10:58:01 PM

Fair call that is was the ambo's who called in the chopper, not you guys! Thanks for sharing the details and i hope you have a quick recovery Brendo.

patto

15-Feb-2008
1:23:20 AM

On 14/02/2008 thisrod wrote:
> -SNIP-

Thanks for the info thisrod. It is good to hear the details of why the helicopter was there. Naturally once the paramedics are there decision making is pretty much handed to them. Hope your friend recovers well.

RE: Cruze
I don't have a problem with second guessing the actions of rescuers. When it comes to getting people down at araps skilled climbers and ARG know more than a heli crew. As the events unfolded it was just man power that got him out, not the heli. I just dislike seeing expensive resources used unecessarily. (I'm in no way dismissing either the climbers injuries or the ambulance service)


JimboV10

15-Feb-2008
8:28:26 AM

You know, there is a simple way to avoid all this...

Climb at the Grampians
Climb on bolts
Climb on way steep stuff with no ledges

:P

Less talk, more climbing


cruze

15-Feb-2008
9:07:15 AM

On 15/02/2008 patto wrote:
>I just dislike seeing expensive resources
>used unecessarily.

Expensive resources get used unnecessarily all the time in our society. If there was ever a time to waste them it would be in responding to someone with unconfirmed injuries. Time sometimes doesn't allow rescuers the luxury of being able to take one approach at a time. "Nup that didn't work, now let's wait for the chopper (meanwhile patient bleeds to death, injury becomes compartmentalised, etc, etc)"


nmonteith

15-Feb-2008
9:23:18 AM

Be thankful we have a top-notch medical service and helicopter available to us for negligible cost.


Rich

15-Feb-2008
11:21:25 AM

On 15/02/2008 JimboV10 wrote:
>You know, there is a simple way to avoid all this...
>
>Climb at the Grampians
>Climb on bolts
>Climb on way steep stuff with no ledges
>
>:P
>
>Less talk, more climbing

C'mon on bolts you could still sprain an ankle or at the least, break a nail. Prob better off just talking about climbing online than taking all that risk...

dalai

15-Feb-2008
11:27:17 AM

Depending on the developers, bolts don't necessarily mean not decking...

There are 43 messages in this topic.