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Booroomba accident

patto

20-Apr-2016
4:42:10 PM

On 20/04/2016 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>At risk of continued thread hijack... I find the concepts of beta vs adventure
>intriguing in this thread.
Same here which is why I broached the topic. And don't get me wrong, leaving the door open for adventure is great. There is still plenty available for those that want to step off the beaten path.

>Maybe it reflects a subtle change in attitude by more modern participants
>of the game we play?
I wouldn't say that the change is at all subtle. But the change has occurred and ignoring and writing mediocre guides and using adventure as an excuse isn't helpful.

Not that I think Australian guides are mediocre for climbing. I think they are very good. But I do take issue with the canyoning guides and the culture that surrounds them. I don't buy the conservation excuse.

estey

21-Apr-2016
8:54:12 AM

On 20/04/2016 patto wrote:
>>Maybe it reflects a subtle change in attitude by more modern participants
>>of the game we play?
>I wouldn't say that the change is at all subtle. But the change has occurred
>and ignoring and writing mediocre guides and using adventure as an excuse
>isn't helpful.

You have high expectations mate. For more popular canyons there are more than adequate track notes online and in the Jamieson guide. Sure there are a few errors in the odd grid reference ... so what. There are errors in pitch lengths and grades in the best climbing guidebooks.

For less well travelled and more remote canyons a grid reference is enough information. It is easy enough to work out which are the real crackers by talking to other bushwalkers or trolling through trip reports online.

Environmental damage from canyoners occurs not so much in canyons themselves but through erosion on the walk ins and walk outs. This problem is real. To much detail in guidebooks will unnecessarily make this worse.

Regarding Hermes ... I always found the first pitch way more serious. Less pro, closer to the ground and at least one ledge you would not want to fall on.

patto

21-Apr-2016
1:48:18 PM

On 21/04/2016 estey wrote:
>On 20/04/2016 patto wrote:
>You have high expectations mate.
You are right there. Australian climbing guidebooks are mostly excellent. When I climb overseas even at more popular destinations I am disappointing at the quality of the guides.

In contrast when I have canyoned overseas I have found the guides both online and in print much better. Adoption of a recognised canyon grading system would also make sense, IMO.

Now until I have written my own guidebook I feel I don't feel I can fault other guidebook authors. However I am faulting the culture of sparse details in canyoning..

On 21/04/2016 estey wrote:
>Environmental damage from canyoners occurs not so much in canyons themselves
>but through erosion on the walk ins and walk outs. This problem is real.
>To much detail in guidebooks will unnecessarily make this worse.
I completely agree except with the bit about too much detail. In climbing we limit out impact by sticking to the established trails. In Blue Mountain Canyoning I've seen the damage done by everybody taking a varied route.

Anyway... This is a climbing forum not a canyoning forum. So I'll leave it be.

icefest

23-Apr-2016
6:33:49 AM

On 20/04/2016 climberman wrote:
>http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/28/1048653853629.html
>
>http://publications.rzsnsw.org.au/doi/pdf/10.7882/AZ.2011.027 :
>"We concluded that, at current visitation levels, there is no measurable
>impact on the predominant
>animal component of these ecosystems. This finding was contrary to the
>expectations of the land
>managers of this area."

>Never go there personally, cold and wet places.

Animal...

Plants, moss and erosion are much more long term.
Walking the bank instead of the creek makes it even worse.

widewetandslippery

23-Apr-2016
10:32:01 AM

My 2 cents.

I packed darkies doing Hermes. Classics are classics for a reason.

As for canyon guides if you cant find a canyon you are not in the bush enough. Invest time and sack up and go down from there. Adventure is in the unknown and canyoning is exploration. No doubt there will always be a bit of pàrramatta rope in the most unlikely spot


Dane

23-Apr-2016
1:14:00 PM

Sadly I think the day of the minimal guide book is done. It's a pity, it make for far more interesting and fun days.
The Booroomba northern slabs guide http://canberraclimbing.org.au/media/15410/booroombanorthernslabsguide.pdf
is rather concerning me for the new ACT guide book. Beta for gear on every pitch, pictures showing the view from belays. If it's being done that way it's no surprise that it's been coming out 'next year' for 3 years now, and I won't be buying a copy

[Moderator edit: parenthesies removed from the link, to make it workable].

Ithomas

23-Apr-2016
1:44:50 PM

Just had a look at the Northern Slabs guide. An sad exercise in tired cliches and dubious rationalisations. Cut out the beta inserts for each climb and the pictures of protection and it would probably pass muster. My suggestion is that beginners relax, start easy and learn some technique instead of entertaining the anxiety filled notion that thinking for yourself is dangerous.


Pat

23-Apr-2016
1:45:05 PM

That's a dead link

Ithomas

23-Apr-2016
1:56:45 PM

All you have to do is think! Go to Canberra Climbers Club site and there is the pdf!

climberman

23-Apr-2016
5:34:04 PM

On 23/04/2016 Pat wrote:
>That's a dead link
remove the parenthesis at the end of the hotlink

Estey

23-Apr-2016
5:53:54 PM

On 23/04/2016 Ithomas wrote:
>Just had a look at the Northern Slabs guide. An sad exercise in tired cliches
>and dubious rationalisations.

I actually think this guide is a useful contribution. The reason it was put together is to encourage more climbers to get out there and enjoy some slab climbing in a beautiful place. The area deserves more attention than it receives. I don't find this tired or dubious.

I agree the beta inserts and pictures of protection are not essential. I don't find them offensive either. I'm still going to get scared whether they are there or not. It doesn't really matter once you have climbed a route a few times.

The new Canberra select guide is being done by a completely different group of people. I'd assume the style and vibe will be very different to the Northern Slabs guide. I'm looking forward to it.

ithomas

23-Apr-2016
8:59:10 PM

G'day Esty. I agree with you that the slabs are beautiful and that more people climbing them would be perfectly fine. The sad and tired arguments that I refered to are different; that old trad climbers have had their turn, that old trad climbering ethics have held back progress, that knowing little more than a name, a grade and a general idea of a climbs character is somehow either dangerous or elitist. That's how I read the discusion and beta sections of the guide and I reckon that climbing on the slabs would be better served without that level of prior knowledge.
Ian

uwhp510

26-Apr-2016
12:10:00 PM

Had a quick look at the northern slabs guide and I'm pretty sure that the authors are distinct from the guys doing the ACT guide. I mean... comic sans... really?!?

I'm also pretty disappointed that a couple of the previously super bold slabs have been retro-ed. Apparently this was done with the permission of the respective first ascenionists, but the elapsed time of > 30 years between the first ascent and bolts makes it a little bit bullsh1t in my opinion. Then again, I'm fine with Equilibrium, Extreme Youth and Beast of Burden, although that's probably because I never saw them pre-retros.


cruze

26-Apr-2016
2:09:51 PM

Wow that northern slabs guide looks like a labour of love!

My first experience on the northern slabs was with two mates (all 15 yo) and about 6 pieces of gear we didn't know how to use, trying to climb drunken delight (all of grade 8) in my brother's canvas army boots. We dogged the crap out of the first pitch each lowering off a size 11 Hex held tight by two match-head sized crystals of granite before finally "unlocking" its secrets.

By the time we got to the top it was dinner time I think so we sauntered on down to our camp at the carpark and told tall tales into the cold Brindabella night. By the time we were finished with that we psyched ourselves up for Aitchison's Needle and Overhang Corner the next morning. First time I ever went rock climbing. I thought I was eXtreme.

I kinda like the notion of opening up the northern slabs with more readily available information but would be a bit sad if 15 year olds now weren't able to have an experience like mine in many ways. It wasn't necessarily a healthy experience, but it did spark in me something that I have held to this day.

technogeekery

26-Apr-2016
3:48:39 PM

Great thread drift! Sorry to hear about the woman who fell off Hades, hope the rumours are right and she is in good working order. Not sorry to hear about the "new" Northern Slabs guide - just downloaded it, and for a bumbly grade climber who wants to develop a proficiency in slab, this looks brilliant. I've struggled for years to find climbs there and this will make it a lot more accessible than the old hand-sized guide I have. And for those of you who prefer it inaccessible - up ya jumper.

Jayford4321

26-Apr-2016
8:01:42 PM

On 23/04/2016 Estey wrote:
>The new Canberra select guide is being done by a completely different
>group of people. I'd assume the style and vibe will be very different to
>the Northern Slabs guide. I'm looking forward to it.
>
Do U like retro'd routes too?

On 26/04/2016 technogeekery wrote:
>I've struggled for years to find climbs there and this will make it a lot
>more accessible than the old hand-sized guide I have. And for those of
>you who prefer it inaccessible - up ya jumper.

Itz neva been inaccessible, but Ur climb finding skilz shoulda improved more than U let on, if U had of persevered with the old guide in those years.

Estey

27-Apr-2016
11:04:43 AM

On 26/04/2016 gnaguts wrote:

>Do U like retro'd routes too?

Mixed feelings. And U?

technogeekery

27-Apr-2016
1:42:44 PM

gnaguts - yes, if I lived near Canberra, I'm sure I'd have it sussed - but as someone who visits every couple of years, I think the new guide will be a lot more helpful

One Day Hero

13-May-2016
4:13:04 PM

On 23/04/2016 ithomas wrote:
>The sad and tired arguments
>that I refered to are different; that old trad climbers have had their
>turn, that old trad climbering ethics have held back progress, that knowing
>little more than a name, a grade and a general idea of a climbs character
>is somehow either dangerous or elitist. That's how I read the discusion
>and beta sections of the guide and I reckon that climbing on the slabs
>would be better served without that level of prior knowledge.
>Ian
>
Hi Ian, I share your view on guidebooks removing adventure to a certain degree. However, there are a couple of things which might be worth thinking about.
Booroomba is almost abandoned. Barely anyone climbs there apart from the middle aged devotees who have been climbing there for over twenty years. Most younger climbers in Canberra (even the ones who go to Piddington and Arapiles) don't go out there. The number one reason I've heard for this is that people get lost trying to find routes, then get runout and scared. Booroomba could use more traffic. The cracks are being reclaimed by vegetation, the slabs are overgrowing with lichen. I recently spent a day digging out Terminant Corner (one of the best gr15 pitches around) which was getting totally choked with veg.
Modern climbers don't like written descriptions, they prefer photo topos. There's no point going into the how and why, it's just like that now. There would be almost no reason to do a new Canberra guide unless it included photo topos. You could just reprint the excellent 1997 guide with the addition of 200 new routes. Everyone would hate it, no one new would visit Booroomba.
Although Brian has given us the ok to use his exhaustively researched Northern Slabs guide, there is no way we could fit all of that detail into a printed guidebook. We'll definitely be relying on his research, but presenting the information in less detail (and I'll try to slander a few people to provide comic relief). If some people want to dull their adventure by looking up the beta online, so what? It doesn't affect anyone elses experience, and I would bet money that the Northern Slabs will never suffer from overcrowding owing to....well, the slabbyness.

Jayford4321

13-May-2016
4:38:30 PM

On 27/04/2016 Estey wrote:
>On 26/04/2016 gnaguts wrote:
>
>>Do U like retro'd routes too?
>
>Mixed feelings. And U?

Nar, I know how to trad climb, so the only fun they offa up is opportunity for chopping.

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