Report Accidents and Injuries

Author	Accident at Mt Buffalo 26/04/15
patto 12-Jul-2015 4:57:55 PM	Kieranl, that is a fair summary of the Buffalo situation.
rolsen1 12-Jul-2015 8:06:04 PM	On 12/07/2015 kieranl wrote: snip >In all three cases human factors contributed heavily to the accidents, >these being variously poor communication, distraction and impatience. We're >all guilty of these at different times and I know that it's only luck that >has saved me from mistakes due to these over the years. Totally agree.... I have been guilty of all three of these, but I don't think I (or anyone) should ever put other's lives in danger because of our impatience. Sure, I've I called safe (often) when I wanted to hurry up things with a slow partner, and I knew I was actually but not technically safe, but I've never taken anyone off belay because of impatience. Poor communication and distraction do happen... we're human, but impatience (not saying this happened here) seems very different and inexcusable from the other two reasons.
One Day Hero 13-Jul-2015 9:55:56 PM	The uni club format is kinda doomed to forever trend towards a culture of shitness. Average student is only around for 3 or 4 years, which isn't long enough to go from newbie to teacher. Anyone talented who somehow manages to get good will most likely leave, because climbing gr12 every weekend is boring. In fact, the only way uni clubs ever seem to temporarily reverse the downward spiral is when some lechy types jump in for a year and inject some of their knowledge (amongst other things). I don't really see how any administrative changes could help mumc, they should just advertise for an experienced 30 to 50 year old sleaze. Seriously, sexual harassment is probably the lesser of two evils here.
patto 13-Jul-2015 11:13:26 PM	Spoken like somebody who has no idea about what he is talking about. (Though entirely true to form.) Your understanding of the demographics of the uni clubs clearly has little basis in reality. Though that is entirely understandable considering you're posting from a couch hundreds of kilometers away. You also very likely have little understanding of the difference between going out with a mate climbing and taking on the duty of care for several dependent novices. The shit has hit the media fan recently for MUMC. Two accidents have occurred this year and these things have wider repercussions. I have little doubt things a pretty tough for those involved at the moment. Posting BS like you have done in doesn't help things. Those who have been following along have no doubt realised that I have been and still am connected with people in the university clubs. Like I said earlier, the guy in the Buffalo accident is a friend of mine. That accident was a little bit bizarre and unlucky but very lucky to have the minor outcome that occurred. As far as the University Clubs go, I am happy to stick my neck out and defend them. Be it MUMC, ROC, LUMC or MBOC; They are, and continue to be, some of the best groups in Melbourne for young adults to get involved in climbing and outdoor sports. Oh and one more thing. Please don't presume everything in the media is accurate. I think we all know how reliable the media is when reporting of climbing incidents.
Superstu 14-Jul-2015 8:25:57 AM	One of mumc's strengths was the layering of generations passing through the club. Graduates often hung around a few years as their peers did likewise and it was a productive blend of old and new. Things got creepy when some folk seem to hang around for ever but who knows what floats their boat. There were always a few injuries and close calls along the way, but this is not limited to the clubs. I see dodgy things done every day at the crags and the outdoors generally. But uni clubs like mumc will always be fodder for reptile journalism while the education system in this country remains one of the key drivers of inequity in our society. Perhaps during mumc's navel gazing they consider returning to their roots and re-embracing values of adventure, exploration and independent nature-based recreation, and less focus on the technical sports from day one. Being able to head out for a four day walk somewhere remote, rugged and poorly mapped, with nothing more than a backpack and a few good friends, and learning to plan, look after yourself, manage the group dynamics, deal with the unexpected, and come back with awesome photos of wilderness and good vibes is a life skill that prepares you well for playing the games of climbing big cold mountains or long remote climbs.
patto 14-Jul-2015 12:21:26 PM	On 14/07/2015 Superstu wrote: >One of mumc's strengths was the layering of generations passing through >the club. Graduates often hung around a few years as their peers did likewise >and it was a productive blend of old and new. Things got creepy when some >folk seem to hang around for ever but who knows what floats their boat. > >There were always a few injuries and close calls along the way, but this >is not limited to the clubs. I see dodgy things done every day at the crags >and the outdoors generally. But uni clubs like mumc will always be fodder >for reptile journalism while the education system in this country remains >one of the key drivers of inequity in our society. > >Perhaps during mumc's navel gazing they consider returning to their roots >and re-embracing values of adventure, exploration and independent nature-based >recreation, and less focus on the technical sports from day one. Being >able to head out for a four day walk somewhere remote, rugged and poorly >mapped, with nothing more than a backpack and a few good friends, and learning >to plan, look after yourself, manage the group dynamics, deal with the >unexpected, and come back with awesome photos of wilderness and good vibes >is a life skill that prepares you well for playing the games of climbing >big cold mountains or long remote climbs. MUMC's roots have rock climbing firmly embedded in them from year one over 70 years ago. There were groups from MUMC that were putting up routes on some of Australia's remote climbing mountains well before the 'birth' of Arapiles climbing in the 60s. To put it bluntly, the roots of MUMC are much more adventurous (and risky) than the standard Arapiles, Gramps and Buffalo cragging that is done these days. Anyway that's all from me and my crusade to try to correct inaccuracies posted here. MUMC has some tough months ahead following these unfortunate circumstances. A bit of bad mouthing on chockstone is hardly a concern. (Unless it leads to inaccurate reporting.) This isn't the first time nor will it be the last time that serious incidents strikes climbing clubs. It was only last year that a non-uni club suffered a tragedy of the worst form. Oh and one more thing we shouldn't forget that two people have been seriously injured in these accidents. That is a tragedy for all those involved and that cannot be ignored. Some sensitivity in discussion is a good thing. Thankfully the man who involved in the buffalo incident is nearing a full recovery. I don't have reliable information on the woman's injuries but I believe that her recovery is going to be an ongoing affair. This has been traumatic for many involved.
One Day Hero 14-Jul-2015 5:03:11 PM	On 13/07/2015 patto wrote: >Your understanding of the demographics of the uni clubs clearly has little >basis in reality. I've been a keen observer of the ANUMC for a couple of decades now, there's a cycle. Currrently they're at a high point, with a few experienced climbers making things work. But when that crowd moves on, the next generation will be a bit less skilled, and the one after that a bit less again. Within three or four years it's possible to be back to a very dumb state. This is the forth lap I've seen, but it has probably always been this way. I've never seen anything of the Victorian uni clubs which has made me think that they're any different. >You also very likely >have little understanding of the difference between going out with a mate >climbing and taking on the duty of care for several dependent novices. That's not true, I've taught several novices to climb. I don't take fuching dumbshits out though. >The shit has hit the media fan recently for MUMC. Two accidents have >occurred this year and these things have wider repercussions. I have little >doubt things a pretty tough for those involved at the moment. Posting >BS like you have done in doesn't help things. > I'm not really trying to help them. I don't know if they're a bunch of arseclowns, or just unlucky. But it's a question they should be asking themselves.
One Day Hero 14-Jul-2015 5:15:10 PM	On 14/07/2015 patto wrote: >MUMC's roots have rock climbing firmly embedded in them from year one over >70 years ago. There were groups from MUMC that were putting up routes >on some of Australia's remote climbing mountains well before the 'birth' >of Arapiles climbing in the 60s So fuching what? There were some good climbers in the club in the 50s? That has less than fuch all to do with the club now. The quality of the club now is entirely dependant on who is in it now, ancient history won't help. > It was only last year that a non-uni club suffered a tragedy of the worst >form. Yeah, and that club took a couple of people out to Moonarie who had no business being at a crag of that nature (or any other crag, really). Not the bloke who had the acco, btw.
martym 14-Jul-2015 11:12:20 PM	I know nothing about MUMC, but based on my experience with a university club in Sydney, I agree with some of these comments - namely that there are waves of experience that sadly lead to less experienced people doing things they probably shouldn't. From Patto's description though, that doesn't seem to be the case here. In my club's case - the sheer number of activities to accident ratio says a lot. For MUMC, Two accidents in one year looks bad in a newspaper, but how many is that over 70 years? Shame on theage for printing speculation from an anonymous informant. If they aren't willing to identify themselves then it might as well be the journalist's own interpretation. A wall of silence to the media is not necessarily a bad thing, since they clearly want to get the most dramatic quotes they can to create a story where there isn't really one Sounds like a hard time for Melb Uni if they are now banning roped activity due to media pressure. I hope it all works out and the people involved recover and get back outdoors.
simone 15-Jul-2015 8:15:51 AM	On 14/07/2015 martym wrote: >club's case - the sheer number of activities to accident ratio says a lot. Any death in this kind of acivity is one too many and ratios mean nothing to the bereaved. MUMC were just lucky somebody didn't die. Fair enough not talking to media, but for the community involved in these kind of activities the synopsis of what happened should be available to learn from, like they publish in the Accidents In North America Alpine Journal if there is an Australian equivalent?
Jayford4321 15-Jul-2015 8:45:48 AM	On 15/07/2015 simone wrote: >the synopsis of what happened should be available to learn from They stuffed up so who wants to learn how to do that? It'd kinda be like buying the ODH lexicon of vocabulary greatness, though I find the points he makes a hoot.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 15-Jul-2015 9:18:29 AM	On 14/07/2015 Superstu wrote: >(snip) >There were always a few injuries and close calls along the way, but this >is not limited to the clubs. I see dodgy things done every day at the crags >and the outdoors generally. (snip) > >Perhaps during mumc's navel gazing they consider returning to their roots >and re-embracing values of adventure, exploration and independent nature-based >recreation, and less focus on the technical sports from day one. Being >able to head out for a four day walk somewhere remote, rugged and poorly >mapped, with nothing more than a backpack and a few good friends, and learning >to plan, look after yourself, manage the group dynamics, deal with the >unexpected, and come back with awesome photos of wilderness and good vibes >is a life skill that prepares you well for playing the games of climbing >big cold mountains or long remote climbs. You are right about dodgy things leading to close calls, injuries or worse, not being limited to clubs; though the amount of rescues associated with bushwalkers (prepared or not), suggests to me that that activity too has its moments... It is easier for old fart survivors to say "I told them so", rather than instil (indoctrinate?) common sense and self sufficiency into latter day gizmo-dependant adventurers? What model might be good for that? A club?? Heh, heh, heh. ;-)
capt_planit 15-Jul-2015 10:18:02 AM	I hate to defend the uni club but I find that lumping these two incidents as "abseiling accidents" and then using them as evidence of an unsafe learning enviroment to be somewhat disingenuous. I would prefer to see the most recent accident catalogued under "stuck rope" rather than "abseil". Lets face it, when the rope gets stuck best practices frequently are forgotten. I'm sure many members have resorted to rather dodgy techniques to get their life-line back, and felt pretty happy when they didn't bring a rock down on their heads or wind up with a chopped rope. I hope the powers that be review these data after the media circus dies down and make the right choice for students who enjoy the outdoors. I'm not sure I've seen enough evidence to suggest that the club is any more unsafe than others.
Wendy 15-Jul-2015 12:19:06 PM	I learnt to climb in a uni club, and I hate to agree that Damo has a point. I learnt in the dodgiest manner possible, went on to teaching people myself almost straight away and it was a year or 2 until I actually was on top of things enough to actually teach people, then after another year or 2, I left. When I look back on it, it's amazing any of us survived our first 2 years of climbing. It's not just uni clubs though - most people I know who have been climbing a long time look similarly back on their beginnings. It is in some ways a classic way to perpetuate poor practices. THink of it as like inbreeding. If someone teaches you something suboptimally, unless you've learnt otherwise elsewhere, you reteach it to someone who reteaches it to someone else ... it becomes the standard practice for a certain population. Uni clubs however have come a long way since then, as indeed have standards in climbing instruction in general. Many of them employ more experienced guides to run their beginner or learn to lead courses for them or pay for their more experienced member to do instructor courses. It's still an unregulated industry however, and there are people out there teaching who really shouldn't be. Even in those who have some training, I firmly believe that regular and varied practice is necessary to develop and maintain good skills, and quite a lot of qualified instructors (in our unregulated system with many difficerent providers of different sort of climbing instructor courses) don't have that. One course i know gets its 3rd years to teach its 1st years. Another great way to perpetuate problems. And (as I think Stu or Patto might have said) there is a lot of dodgy stuff done at our cliffs everyday. That people don't have nasty accidents more often is amazing. It's not just unis or clubs, it's people with either poor skills or poor judgement in general.
patto 15-Jul-2015 1:57:59 PM	On 15/07/2015 simone wrote: >Fair enough not talking to media, but for the community involved in these >kind of activities the synopsis of what happened should be available to >learn from, like they publish in the Accidents In North America Alpine >Journal if there is an Australian equivalent? I completely agree. I have been and am still am an advocate of making the information available to the wider climbing community (aka chockstone). Hopefully this will happen at some point. Though understand that proper incident reports take time to prepare and that chockstone is not the primary recipients of those reports. On 15/07/2015 capt_planit wrote: >I hate to defend the uni club but I find that lumping these two incidents >as "abseiling accidents" and then using them as evidence of an unsafe learning >enviroment to be somewhat disingenuous. Thank you, for bringing some sense and logic into things. These two accidents are completely unrelated. The fact that two within the space of a few months is simply statistical chance. Though it naturally doesn't look good. Even in the absence of media reporting, serious reviewing of procedures is prudent. (The halting of roped sports happened before the media coverage.) >I'm not sure I've seen enough evidence to suggest that the club is any more >unsafe than others. Quite true. In general I would say that the way clubs and their members approach these activities is with significantly more caution and safety procedures than your typical recreational climber. But of course that is also to be expected as organisations have significantly wider responsibilities than your average climbers. Club-members are fallible just like the rest of humanity, so on occasion unfortunate events do occur.
patto 15-Jul-2015 2:26:53 PM	Personally; I learnt the basics in a uni club (MUMC), the rest was largely self taught through plenty of reading (knowledge of accident reports is always good). The guy who kick started my climbing experience was extremely thorough and took safety very seriously. He is a climber and is skilled and highly experienced in industrial rope access. There are also other professional and highly respected guides who are still in regular contact with the club. Though lets not elevate all professional guide too far up. Professional guides are not necessarily more experienced or skilled than club members or chockstoners. I know of one canyon guide for example, who went from not having ever abseiled to being a canyon guide on the other side of Australia within a year. I know this because I was the one who first helped him into his harness and threaded his device. ;-) (no slight intended on this individual's current level of skill, I'm only a little jealous!)
martym 17-Jul-2015 10:45:17 AM	On 15/07/2015 simone wrote: >On 14/07/2015 martym wrote: >>club's case - the sheer number of activities to accident ratio says a >Any death in this kind of acivity is one too many and ratios mean nothing >to the bereaved. >MUMC were just lucky somebody didn't die. I know I'm probably replying to a troll, but I find th statement "any death is one too many" the climbing equivalent of calling "racism" or "think of the children!" What climbing guidebook, gear label or outdoor club doesn't firmly state: "You could die engaging in this activity"? What would mean something to the bereaved? Any death of a young person is one too many. Does that mean every time a young person nearly dies all activities of that nature should end? >Fair enough not talking to media, but for the community involved in these >kind of activities the synopsis of what happened should be available to >learn from, like they publish in the Accidents In North America Alpine >Journal if there is an Australian equivalent? You are reading it.
Simone 17-Jul-2015 11:29:25 AM	On 17/07/2015 martym wrote: >I know I'm probably replying to a troll, but I find th statement "any >death is one too many" the climbing equivalent of calling "racism" or "think >of the children!" >What climbing guidebook, gear label or outdoor club doesn't firmly state: >"You could die engaging in this activity"? > >What would mean something to the bereaved? Any death of a young >person is one too many. >Does that mean every time a young person nearly dies all activities >of that nature should end? > > >>Fair enough not talking to media, but for the community involved in these >>kind of activities the synopsis of what happened should be available >to >>learn from, like they publish in the Accidents In North America Alpine >>Journal if there is an Australian equivalent? >You are reading it. All I am reading so far is about silence as anything else on this thread is hearsay or speculation. Thank goodness there are no bereaved from these particular incidents though I have no doubt lives were changed from them. A clear synopsis might mean something to bereaved because at least they can more fully understand what happened. Often this leads to further crusade to help prevent future similar accidents if they were deemed highly preventable. It is not only young people who stuff up, and no, risky activity should not cease just because stuff ups occur. PS You left out saving the whales in your generalised assumption of what makes climbing equivalency cliches.

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