Post links and comments about your favourite climbing flicks

Author	Omiros, 7b fall
simey 23-Jun-2015 10:46:41 PM	On 23/06/2015 OozeDumbHopeless wrote: >Not enough slack? As Mikl points out, the last draw was at his waist. >There was heaps of slack. I agree. There is a lot of criticism of the belayer, but at least he was being very attentive. The climber has fallen in a potentially dangerous part of the climb and with his leg wrapped around the rope, so in my book the climber needs to accept responsibility for his accident. There are a lot of variables and considerations and a certain amount of experience that comes with giving soft catches.
Snacks 23-Jun-2015 10:58:45 PM	His fall deceleration wasnt that bad, the body inversion by his leg recoiling off the taut rope is the main problem here. If he had fallen further (more slack) the rate of inversion would have been even faster and maybe his body would have rotated around further so it hit first instead of his back depending on the timing. So don't think raising the pitch forks floor the belayer is that necessary.
stugang 23-Jun-2015 11:00:41 PM	In Oz grades what is a 7b fall?
patto 23-Jun-2015 11:09:34 PM	On 23/06/2015 OozeDumbHopeless wrote: >Not enough slack? As Mikl points out, the last draw was at his waist. >There was heaps of slack. I agree. Mikl's observation seems be accurate. Had the all the slack been taken in then the fall might have only been 2m not the 6m it seems to be. On 22/06/2015 Macciza wrote: >Having more rope out (then that guy, not taking any in and not bracing >oneself) will almost always be better, any worser outcomes are the exception >not the rule. And sometimes require dropping people even further . . . Huh? As a general rule this seems absurd. There are plenty of climbs which are steep overhanging sport routes. And even on these more slack isn't always better. Have more rope out means higher energy falls. In the example above it seems to be 3x more due to the slack in the system. It also makes hitting ledges below the climber more likely. Certainly many times I've taken expected falls I've asked my to take in the slack. Most of the time my priority is reducing the length of the fall and ensuring am appropriately braced for any impact that will result.
Macciza 24-Jun-2015 12:47:27 AM	Sorry, but have to totally disagree. There is no way the draw is 'at his waist' when he falls, or that he pushes off so hard (to somehow get his leg over at rope that is supposedly at his waist??)... The draw is at his waist at 0, and his left leg is bent, he then stands on that leg and gets a drop knee with his right at 4, which he swaps to with left at 14, stabbing his right foot to wide at 15, then by 20 he finds a high hand hold at full extension off his left and bring his right foot in high, above the draw, at 21, and left foot at similar height at 22. It also appears to me that he is moving outwards (i.e. overhanging). Then as he falls he unfortunately bends his right leg in a bit and catching the rope behind his ankle and ending behind his knee as the rope comes tight. At 39, just into the slo-mo section, you can clearly see his foot above the draw. There is also a lot of tension in the rope even at this point the draws are all pulled out and the rope at the bottom running to the belayer is dead straight. He then takes in some slack, and braces himself so as to not move an inch.?!#@*?? Fall deceleration?? More like Pendulum!! Having more slack in the system is the only way to avoid this. As a general rule yes - more slack is better then a tight rope, worser outcomes like hitting ledges are the exception. More slack provides more rope able to absorb force and help avoid direct pendulums. Providing a dynamic belay is even more important with auto locking devices to help reduce peak force and spread it over a longer time. I would certainly be doing so in this instance and probably be expecting to get pulled off my feet and whipped around a bit as I shared some of the peak forces. Yep often when its an expected fall and its a controlled dismount then yeah take in a bit of slack so you can slump on to the rope - but thats not whats happening here, the guy appears to be going for the tick, so the slack should be on anyway,and then when he's sketching that bit at the end you gotta keep it on because he's hoping to make the move and because you don't want to pendulum him into the wall below. Most of the time my priority is on giving a nice catch that doesn't slam the climber into the wall and amount of slack, and dynamic belaying is the only way to achieve that. Even when it is a short roped controlled dismount I will give way to the force rather then brace completely against it.
The good Dr 24-Jun-2015 8:54:24 AM	All very interesting conjecture, but how many of you have actually belayed someone on the climb in question?
jdb 24-Jun-2015 9:00:11 AM	What freaks me out about this fall is that he dislocated his thumb (which was unlucky) by putting it behind his head but it probably saved him from a fractured skull or worse. If ever there was a film clip to help wavering climbers who can't decide whether to wear a helmet, this is it. The misconception that steep bolted sports climbs are really safe is 'blown out of the water.' My 20 cents worth!
IdratherbeclimbingM9 24-Jun-2015 9:06:27 AM	On 24/06/2015 jdb wrote: >What freaks me out about this fall is that he dislocated his thumb (which >was unlucky) by putting it behind his head but it probably saved him from >a fractured skull or worse. If ever there was a film clip to help wavering >climbers who can't decide whether to wear a helmet, this is it. The misconception >that steep bolted sports climbs are really safe is 'blown out of the water.' >My 20 cents worth! The discussion on the UKC site at the time I last looked, just after Karl B posted the link, had a post disputing that his hand saved his head... Kieran Duncan - on 16 Jun 2015 In reply to PM: > Looks to me like the busted thumb was caught between his head and the wall? Need to remember that neat technique the next time I'm climbing sans-lid. That's what we thought initially but after analysing the video at home we're pretty sure his arm just impacts the rock above (relative to the climber) his head. Post edit: Soft catch, hard catch, whatever... Climbing can be dangerous. I think it interesting that as time and technology has moved on the basic concept of him falling while rockclimbing and not dying, due to the belay worked(!), has been lost. Everybody involved learnt from that experience, and thanks to the interweb, many of us still continue to learn from it. Second post edit: Link to a picture of that route area from ground level, from one of the posters on the equivalent UKC thread. http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=172193 It looks pretty steep overall to me, such that hitting slab lower down from the fall point is not as likely as I first thought from the video.
Macciza 24-Jun-2015 10:49:27 AM	Aha, the good Dr, you say it best when you say nothing at all , and you've not said much... I don't see how having belay on that climb or not makes any difference, or even that someone who has belayed on that climb more times then you have would therefore know better. Maybe you short roped your climber too and had pretty much the same thing happen and believe that is simply how it is ... Particularly given your comments so far, a high first bolt that slams you into the wall ? Um don't low first bolts slam you into the wall and high first bolts pull you upwards. So what if you slam the wall, if you are protecting the leader that's your job.... I find it absurd that technology has gotten so much better and yet the human component has gotten so much worse. Belayers more interested in making short falls then safe ones, thinking a tight rope is better then a slack belay, not giving dynamic catches, worrying more about themselves then the leader, and basically belaying badly but believing themselves to be uber safe . .. Because they wear a helmet and gloves when belaying, and anchor themselves to ground, and always use the correct abseil backup, etc etc etc I find it ridiculous that so many people seem to be defending the belayer and think that he did did the best job possible under the circumstances. He didn't! He f---ed up badly and the climber paid the price for his bad belaying.....
The good Dr 24-Jun-2015 2:07:31 PM	Ah, Macciza, playing the man and not the ball. Yes, the belayer could have done much better, taking in the rope was bad form. Yes, the leader could also have made better decisions. Accidents are always a combination of factors. From actual experience belaying people on the route I can tell you that it is an awkward stance and that a soft catch is extremely difficult due to the terrain, distance you need to be situated from the wall and the location of the first bolt. In that case you may end up with an injured belayer as well. As I have said, more slack in the system may well have helped, but there are no guarantees as to the outcome with that either. There is no one solution for every belay situation and a suitable assessment needs to be made by all parties involved and discussed before climbing begins. BTW, planning to get hurt as a belayer is a very curious suggestion. There is no way to really control the outcome when you 'take one for the team'. An injured belayer is a huge risk for any climbing team.
Snacks 24-Jun-2015 4:31:01 PM	That fall only looks particularly bad because of the whipping effect of his leg and it makes his steadfast belay look like a short-roping one. The climber would have had no issues with cushioning himself with his legs if he was facing the wall. Nice essay rant though Macca, was that a (edit) reply requiring some form of intermittent procrastination to make it to the end? (/edit)
martym 24-Jun-2015 4:57:42 PM	On 23/06/2015 Jayford4321 wrote: >In Oz grades what is a 7b fall? Around 25 give or take a character.
martym 24-Jun-2015 5:01:33 PM	Can anyone provide a video showing how to properly catch a climber with his leg wrapped around the rope?
jezza 24-Jun-2015 5:59:09 PM	On 24/06/2015 martym wrote: >Can anyone provide a video showing how to properly catch a climber with >his leg wrapped around the rope? Well it's simply a matter of paying out an appropriately large amount of slack. This is the reason why, in the more' progressive' climbing cultures of Europe and the Americas, 70m ropes are the norm, and 80m is becoming ever more common.
dalai 24-Jun-2015 6:17:05 PM	On 24/06/2015 Snacks wrote: >Nice essay rant though Macca, was that a two-bong reply? > Snacks - please delete this comment ASAP, otherwise I will and you will find yourself not able to post for a period. Please remember to play the ball and not the man.
Macciza 24-Jun-2015 9:08:54 PM	No Snacks, it looks like short roping because of the obvious lack of slack in the system for literally the whole time leading up to when he falls, after which the belayer appears to try to take in more slack and braces himself so as to not budge an inch. This analysis is backed up by the fact that the climber pendulums straight into the wall rather then falling in a more downwards (softened) trajectory. If someone belayed like that at a competition they'd be immediately retired.... The long post was necessary to demonstrate the facts to those who think the draw was at his waist, which clearly it wasn't. How could he have possibly got his leg around the rope like that with the draw at his waist, unless you are suggesting that he did a back somersault and that it is all some how completely the climbers fault for the consequences. Basically there should have been more top out, at least 1m probably 2m, so the rope in front of the belayer is a nice gentle arc rather then a fairly straight line as seen here, a further 1m or more would ordinarily be given by giving way and absorbing some of the peak force with your body movement. Seeing my leader fall with the rope around his leg as in this instance should prompt me to jump even more to try and absorb more of the force. If done properly, with the right amount of slack and everything aligning perfectly, he wouldn't even hit the wall. And I might be well up towards the first bolt, back to the wall and he'd be upside down, laughing and rubbing the rope burn. .... Having more rope out provides more rope for dynamic action and due to friction the most important part is the bit from the final biner to the climber, having slack provides this. Having a shorter rope also means you begin penduluming earlier and higher in the arc and everything converts to angular momentum slamming you into the cliff. Having more rope out puts you later and lower into the pendulum arc due to length of slack rope and downwards motion then has to be absorbed by rope before becoming angular motion. Giving way or jumping to absorb force at a close enough time introduces further force absorbing and length extension to further reduce angular motion. it is possible to reach full stretch and bounce back up before being swung into the cliff this way . . . Anyway bottom line is I can't see anything that the belayer does as being done particularly well, and certainly see him as a major source of contributing factors that made the incident far worse then it should have been. PS Cheers Dalai, druggist / hempophobic comments are simply unecessary and best ignored. Or engaged by turning them upside down and pointing out that if it were a two-bong reply well obvious it provided a very precise view of the facts, presented with undeniable logic, despite my drug addled brain. I mean its not exactly rocket surgery or anything . . .
stugang 24-Jun-2015 10:58:15 PM	If he took that fall with a helmet is it still 7b or like 7a or something.
martym 24-Jun-2015 11:02:27 PM	On 24/06/2015 jezza wrote: >On 24/06/2015 martym wrote: >>Can anyone provide a video showing how to properly catch a climber with >>his leg wrapped around the rope? >Well it's simply a matter of paying out an appropriately large amount >of slack. This is the reason why, in the more' progressive' climbing cultures >of Europe and the Americas, 70m ropes are the norm, and 80m is becoming >ever more common. That's not a video. I understand what you're saying, I'm just wondering if anyone's seen a video (there must be a million climbing you tube clips by now) where a leg snag ended well? Also, how does longer rope help? In Europe, 30&40m ropes are also very common. In this case, it looks like the climber is max 15m up. That would mean a 50m rope would be more than enough. The reason for longer ropes is longer routes, like one recently established in the blueys at 35m.
Snacks 25-Jun-2015 9:36:03 AM	On 24/06/2015 Macciza wrote: >PS Cheers Dalai, druggist / hempophobic comments are simply unecessary >and best ignored. Or engaged by turning them upside down and pointing out >that if it were a two-bong reply well obvious it provided a very precise >view of the facts, presented with undeniable logic, despite my drug addled >brain. I mean its not exactly rocket surgery or anything . . . The comment was kind of tame for chockstone standards. I was simply impressed with your blow-by-blow account of a video that you obviously took the time to play, pause, add a bit to chockstone... play, pause, add a bit to chockstone... play, pause, add a bit to chockstone... play, pause, add a bit to chockstone... It was inspiring to see such unwavering dedication, even if with the aid of mental enhancements.
simey 25-Jun-2015 9:57:10 AM	On 25/06/2015 Snacks wrote: >The comment was kind of tame for chockstone standards. I agree. I thought it was a funny comment without trying to be inflammatory. Given that Macciza went to some effort to write a detailed and well-considered reply, it is very likely that he had enough time to enjoy a couple of bong hits along the way. It is not as though Macciza is shy about extolling the virtues of marijuana use.

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