Thanks M9, that makes good sense.
I of course have not sone the route. I expect to next year so I perhaps speak witht he tones of someone wanting the best safety shere safety is considered i.e. where bolts are!
On 17/11/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
...>Ozy does not need sanitising.>
Compared to what and when?
It has already been sanitized to an extent in some areas and de-sanitized in others. How would replacing bolts be any sort of 'incremental creep' as the type and location of fixed protection would be the same. The state of the protection would be better, but bolt ladders are not installed to prove you can aid on sketchy, clapped out old fixed pro. They are installed as one method to aid progress through otherwise unprotectable territory. It is better to replace them when it is still possible to re-use the old hole than to have to drill a new set later when they cannot be removed (ie LESS drilling/swiss cheese).
>"If we were debating belay bolts I would be more inclined to agree, but we are not, mostly because the belays are already upgraded with the relatively recent interest in the climb as a free affair"
I think the belay bolts were replaced with aid climbing in mind....nothing to do with the free climbers..
After my recent trip up they wall I was blown away at the amount of bolts in the belays.....if any rebolting
does occur I would hope it would not be in the same vein as the anchors.
On 17/11/2008 The good Dr wrote:
>Compared to what and when?
I gave one example; being the Gledhill Bivvy bolt traverse higher up on the same climb.
>How would replacing bolts be any sort of 'incremental creep'
Some of the suggestions in the initial post would indicate possible upgrade rather than replacement.
>as the type and location of fixed protection would be the same.
There should be bugger-all fixed protection, but this waxes and wanes depending on who had their last cleaning epic.
One persons fixed pro on this climb is often another persons booty...
>bolt ladders are not installed to prove you can aid on sketchy, clapped out old fixed pro. They are installed as one method to aid progress through otherwise unprotectable territory.
True, and this particular bolt ladder is still good for its originally intended purpose.
>It is better to replace them when it is still possible to re-use the old
>hole than to have to drill a new set later when they cannot be removed
>(ie LESS drilling/swiss cheese).
Probably, but I reckon we need only have this debate at least 10 years down the track.
I've done the route three times in the last 10 years and have no memory of being scared of any bolts. This was even before all the new anchor bolts were added.
I'm not reading that ^^
Oh that bolt ladder - yeah holes would do there as well . .
You've come off a fine belay so all's good regardless . .
It's pretty slabby too so bathooks would be fine . .
Hero loops work best on most of the old bolts anyway . .
You only need body weight - hangers are a bit of overkill . .
To my thinking they bolted those sections because they did not have an alternative method at hand. These days it would probably go clean or close as if FA'd . .
Old bolt wise - they should be allowed to die a 'natural death' preferably with an aidclimber attached - body weighting on old bolts is all part of the game . .
Rapping in to retro them is definitely not part of the game in my mind . .
The weirdest thing for me is that most people have no idea what a 'really bad' bolt is
and they still hold or just how disgusting that they have to get before breaking . .
I've sat on things which I would havethought I could snap with my fingers . . .
Maybe I should just try a completely clean 'bolt-free' aid ascent to show whats possible!
You've never seen bad gear until you come across an old rusty piton on a cliff close to the ocean. Simply roll the piton head around and it will come off in your fingers easily. Eeek.
On 17/11/2008 macciza wrote:
>Maybe I should just try a completely clean 'bolt-free' aid ascent to show whats possible!
I reckon that objective is quite achievable* (including skipping using the belay bolts), and would actually be a worthy undertaking. It could push the clean-aid grade from M4 to probably M6, maybe M7 (or possibly harder??, if the existing Direct line is followed as closely as possible).
Mind you, some of the belays would have to be in different places to take advantage of natural features.
~> The Buffalo Guidebook authors would then be faced with another category of ascent, ie (FBA) First Boltless Ascent?
... I doubt the trend would catch on though!
*In a quirky sort of way this appeals to me. Do you want a partner?
>I think the belay bolts were replaced with aid climbing in mind....nothing to do with the free climbers..
>After my recent trip up they wall I was blown away at the amount of bolts in the belays.....if any rebolting does occur I would hope it would not be in the same vein as the anchors.
Hmm, you are probably right in as much as aid climbers wanting extra belay bolts to haul from, and possibly camp off.
I thought a couple of new belays were put in about the time of Steve Monks freeing the line to facilitate that process; and not long after, some of the existing ones were upgraded to some stainless gear, but possibly only replacing existing carrots rather than additional pieces.
are any of the bolts on the bolt ladder pro for a free ascent?
If so, replace these and make the rest hook moves