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Keep outa my crack - Trad routes as projects?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Feb-2008
11:42:26 AM

cruze wrote;
>Putting a twist on it though, what if you fix a wire/tube chock?

… then it’s booty!
Heh, heh, heh.

wallwombat wrote;
>If someone else was to beat us to the first ascent I don't think we would have any right to complain even if we had already got most of the way up the thing.

I think that is time ‘invested’ and would respect the intention of that effort thus far, provided a legitimate excuse could be given for any delay in completing the ‘project’.

anthonyk wrote;
>what difference does it make, is it just about being able to stick your name on it and give it a title? >if climbing is about a personal challenge and personal enjoyment it wouldn't matter if someone else has also tried it. >seems to me that naming & claiming is entirely driven by social rewards not personal ones.

The climbing game also often involves the social rewards element for many.
In fact I can’t recall knowing any climbers that don’t have an ego! … just some are better at managing it is all!

Macciza wrote;
>Sometimes it's just a matter of respect - allowing someone to finish the job they started.

Spot on!

On 3/02/2008 nmonteith wrote:
>The BIG difference between these examples and new trad routes of today
>is that these older examples were FREE attempts of previously aided routes.
>They had already been climbed, cleaned and named. The first ascent competition
>was just to be the first to remove all the aid.

& wallwombat replied;

>That's the smallest BIG difference I have ever heard.

>If that's the case , I think I'll unpack my etriers and head on down to the Grampians. >I'll be able to climb, clean and name any unclimbed line I can find and everyones efforts to free my routes won't be worth a pinch of shit, according to your reasoning. >They're just whittling away my aid.

Indeed murky ground!
I like to think that ‘aided first’ climbs can later be freed.
My dilemma with a grey area (of this) recently arose (see Buffalo Oysters ~ feasting on passion. ~ thread), and I noted a number of factors involved with that climb that I had not previously been aware of.
Indeed I eventually became aware that some other folk were already aware of the potential 1st ascentionists attempt/s and although they have greater ability to do the line had already left it to them; … then along came my partner and myself who have less ability but a good general knowledge of the area and were not aware of the previous history due the lapsed time involved and the closeness with which they kept it to their own chest.

Ronny wrote;
>On the other hand, if someone happened across it and thought (like I did) 'that looks cool', and did it then fair enough. >I'd be fairly disappointed if someone was to put a bolt in it though. >And if they then tried to claim it was their project and I had to keep off then I'd think things had got way out of hand.

There is grey area here too. I talked to a climbing partner at site about the possibility of a line going on Belougery Spire and returning later for a shot at it. He later returned with another bloke who independently thought the same about that possibility (before I got my act together), and their climb Napawi is the result! There was only about three weeks from go to whoa, and I felt pre-empted by a week!

wallwombat wrote;
>Wider than a #5 Camalot, I reckon. >Anyone got any Big Bros?

Ukranian ones preferred?
Heh, heh, heh.

>How do you let people know that you are actively trying a trad route without broadcasting that routes existence and the fact that it is unclimbed? >It's much easier with sport routes.

Indeed this is the crux of the dilemma.

On 4/02/2008 wallwombat wrote:
>But how do you know if a trad line is someone's project, Neil?

& nm replied
>It's a hard one! I guess by a bit of research, checking out old guides, asking other climbers who know the area well.

… but what if the other climbers who know the area well, are voracious new routers! and would likely nick the route?

Dave J wrote;
>It would be a fairly low act to steal a route from someone who has been trying to do it for an age but people who prepare a route and then just add it to their collection of projects and expect others to stay off it are pushing the limits of courtesy a bit.

Apart from ‘respect’ this highlights that being reasonable and only having minimal number of project/s going at one time is fair.

ademmert wrote;
>Lastly i believe in do unto others as you would have done to yourself!

Good call.

Dave J

4-Feb-2008
12:08:37 PM

Hey Adam (and neil)

I hope you're not taking anything Ive said personally...You two both seem to be getting out at every
opportunity and really pushing yourself to get up these things. Not to mention all the time spent on the
thankless task of rebolting existing routes etc, etc. So hats off to you. you're doing a lot more than me
at the moment.

I have never knowingly stolen someones project (I did a couple of routes in tasmania once that I was
told had already been done) And I have benfited a couple of times from people politely not doing routes
I had been working on.

With my comments about the project stuff I was thinking more of when I was climbing a lot and at
every major crag in the grampians there would be an absolutely obvious line that was off limits
because it was someone's project ... And they were never there. I used to find that very frustrating.
Something like Naja at taipan I would look at every time I went there and finally after about 3 years of
never seeing anyone on it I hassled Steve into giving me the thumbs up. Likewise at Muline there were
some very obvious lines that sat there for years not being climbed. That sort of thing. Your route at
olive caves isnt even vaguely in that league I'm looking forward to trying it once youve done it.

Just out of curiosity though....What would you have done if, when you first went to olive caves, you
spied the line, ran back to the car to get your rack and on your return, found someone else on the
route? Sounds a bit far fetched but I can still remember a standoff between malcolm and Helmut (an
Austrian climber) who both turned up at the gallery to bolt nicotine on the same day.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Feb-2008
12:17:12 PM

>a standoff

I have heard of climbers working a project allowing another climber to climb the route all bar the finishing hold, to enable themselves to still be the first ascentionist.
Guess it comes down to trust in the end, ~>
... or who has the biggest drill when used as a weapon? heh, heh, heh.

Ronny

4-Feb-2008
12:24:19 PM

On 4/02/2008 evanbb wrote:
>On 4/02/2008 ado_m wrote:
>>"what difference does it make, is it just about being able to stick your
>>name on it and give it a title? if climbing is about a personal challenge
>>and personal enjoyment it wouldn't matter if someone else has also tried
>>it. seems to me that naming & claiming is entirely driven by social rewards
>>not personal ones."
>>
>>clap clap - people take this gig far too seriously and forget that it
>>should be about fun.
>>
>
>I strongly disagree with this. Surely there's some fun and personal pride
>in being the first person to do something, anything, not just in climbing.

Yeah but surely that pride is somewhat diminished from the fact that somebody else let you be first by not stealing your project.

simey

4-Feb-2008
12:37:07 PM

Dave J... you raise some good points.

Personally, I reckon the way routes are recorded in guidebooks is unfortunate as it only tells part of the story. As this thread has pointed out, there are many different scenarios with how routes get established and in many cases the history leading up to a first ascent is just as significant as the person who actually bags the first ascent.

I'm pretty sure the Smith Rock guide used to credit people with equipping routes and then record the people who first climbed them.

mikl law

4-Feb-2008
12:37:40 PM

Three years and it's open

If it's bolted it's pretty obvious someone's bolted it, but with a trad line it isn't so clear that someone's working it unless it's a moss monster

Perhaps we could have a "Wishful thinking trad project register" . But possibly lots of people wouldn't see it, or would say they hadn't.

Best just to flash the thing really


anthonyk

4-Feb-2008
12:43:09 PM

On 4/02/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>anthonyk wrote;
>>what difference does it make, is it just about being able to stick your
>name on it and give it a title? >if climbing is about a personal challenge
>and personal enjoyment it wouldn't matter if someone else has also tried
>it. >seems to me that naming & claiming is entirely driven by social rewards
>not personal ones.
>
>The climbing game also often involves the social rewards element for many.
>In fact I can’t recall knowing any climbers that don’t have an ego! …
>just some are better at managing it is all!

yes i think you're right, getting some recognition isn't a crime, & it can be constructive for everyone. there is a difference between getting a bit of recognition and ego-stoking. but they are on the same piece of string.


rodw

4-Feb-2008
12:43:41 PM

>I'm pretty sure the Smith Rock guide used to credit people with equipping
>routes and then record the people who first climbed them.
>
Id rather not be constantly reminded of the one that got away :)

prb

4-Feb-2008
12:50:23 PM

Keep projects as quiet as possible and tick 'em as soon as you can. Hope for but never rely on the good faith of others, almost any project can be stolen at any time. Choose projects that are 1 or 2 grades above your limit, not 5 or 6. Use the possibility of someone else getting up it first as incentive to improve your climbing. If someone does, deal with the pain and accept it's his (do chicks steal routes?) reward for being a better climber. Vow it won't happen again. Try hard not to hold grudges.

If all else fails, choose offwidths etc that no one else has any intention of climbing!

Never resort to chipping.

kieranl

4-Feb-2008
12:54:40 PM

My experience with trad routes is that if you let people know that you're trying something then they'll usually give you a decent amount of time to work on it - assuming the route is worthwhile enough for anyone else to be interested. That said, there's no hard and fast rules.


nmonteith

4-Feb-2008
12:55:12 PM

Its very common in Europe for the 'equipper' of a route to be credited in the guide rather than the person who actually climbed it first!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Feb-2008
12:57:06 PM

prb wrote;
>If all else fails, choose offwidths etc that no one else has any intention of climbing!

Oy!
You have just advertised most of my non-aid projects!!
Grrr.
:-(

gfdonc

4-Feb-2008
1:04:44 PM

On 4/02/2008 simey wrote:
>cases the history leading up to a first ascent is just as significant as
>the person who actually bags the first ascent.

Or as the case might also be .. the guidebook author who first does a 'link-up' and then publishes it in place of the first ascent in their guidebook?
(Not directly referring to the person quoted above..)

ademmert

4-Feb-2008
1:09:09 PM

no nothing taken too seriously ;)
enjoying reading the debate thou

Dave J

4-Feb-2008
1:22:24 PM

On 4/02/2008 mikl law wrote:
>Three years and it's open

So someone's been trying a route every other day for 3 years and then you just waltz in and take it
from them just like that. Brutal. I dont think Id have the heart to do that. If however someone hadn't
been actively trying a route for 6 months and they didnt have a valid excuse, seepage, injuries etc. I
would say they had lost interest and the route was up for grabs. There were plenty of routes like this
that I didnt do as the route "belonged" to friends and the friendship was worth more than the ascent.
Most of these ones were subsequently climbed by some other random person and not the "rightful
owner" so maybe I should have just done them myself

Claw, how was it putting up new routes at araps in the 80s? Did people politely wait for each other to
get up routes or was there a bit of competition for first ascents?

People used to have secret projects or secret crags because they were worried someone else might
come along and climb the routes. Now people have even more to fear because all someone has to do
is come along and stick a bolt in the bottom of the routes and then just come back and climb them at
their lesiure.

>I have heard of climbers working a project allowing another climber to
>climb the route all bar the finishing hold, to enable themselves to still
>be the first ascentionist.
>Guess it comes down to trust in the end, ~>

I have done a bunch of routes like that....with a sit on the first bolt or pulling on a draw ...anything to
void the ascent. Often I have done this when belayed by the first ascentionist. I think that's fine. If
you've sat on a draw or something like that you've go no valid claim on the ascent. If you're not
wanting people to do the route, at least let them have a play I reckon. It can be helpful to the first
ascentionist to as sometimes others might find a hold the first ascentionist has missed or work out a
better sequence... Its less selfish of the first ascentionist than making people stay off the line until
they had done their thing with it and it might help just them get up the route.


nmonteith

4-Feb-2008
1:26:41 PM

This is all so contrived isn't it! Imagine a total non-climber trying to understand this topic!


HM33

4-Feb-2008
1:27:40 PM

On 4/02/2008 Dave J wrote:
> If you're not
>wanting people to do the route, at least let them have a play I reckon.
>It can be helpful to the first
>ascentionist to as sometimes others might find a hold the first ascentionist
>has missed or work out a
>better sequence... Its less selfish of the first ascentionist than making
>people stay off the line until
>they had done their thing with it and it might help just them get up the
>route.

I agree with this. although its nice to figure out moves on a new route for yourself with no chalk to control your mind having a mate play on it can be an eye opener. One friend of mine in particular is a master at unlocking key beta.


nmonteith

4-Feb-2008
1:28:12 PM

On 4/02/2008 Dave J wrote:
>So someone's been trying a route every other day for 3 years and then
>you just waltz in and take it
>from them just like that. Brutal. I dont think Id have the heart to do
>that. If however someone hadn't
>been actively trying a route for 6 months and they didnt have a valid
>excuse, seepage, injuries etc.

I can think of a certain thin crack project being attempted by a certain mustached climber at a certain Vic Ranges crag.

tradtroll

4-Feb-2008
1:54:37 PM

On 4/02/2008 nmonteith wrote:
>I can think of a certain thin crack project being attempted by a certain
>mustached climber at a certain Vic Ranges crag.

maybe the next climber had smaller fingers, was better (!), ...or just more suited to the route.

I definitely reckon there is no dibs on a purely trad route and no trad climber would expect it!! I'm sure the moustachioed climber in question bears no grudge.

I agree adding one or two bolts does make it a grey area,...but, maybe this whole debacle would have been avoided if the route hadn't been advertised on chockstone?!!!

Dave J

4-Feb-2008
2:06:16 PM

>I can think of a certain thin crack project being attempted by a certain
>mustached climber at a certain Vic Ranges crag.

I think Malcolm has put a good amount of work into that one over the years...with all sorts of set
backs...hold breaking off etc etc..I mean how do you break off a flare fingerlock?

Millenium is another success story...When Julian and Simon first found and bolted that crag they were so
far off being able to do the routes...literally years off. But then went back and back and got fitter and
stronger and finally got up them all.

There are 157 messages in this topic.