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Ben Lomond Bolts Removed

spicelab

20-Apr-2007
4:45:51 PM

>On 19/04/2007 kieranl wrote:
Perhaps a bit tough but why ban bolts if you allow
>>other fixed garbage?
>
>I wonder if spicelab would call that a pseudo-pragmatic argument as well?

Actually I agree with Kieran on this one, even though I think we are a bit too eagerly resigned to the fact that climbers WON'T remove old slings and that therefore they are ABSOLUTELY fixed gear. Do climbers have a problem with picking up any of their other garbage?

What bothers me is that climbing is still relatively an infant sport yet we have embraced the bolt like it's the be-all and end-all, as though technology won't bring us another lower impact alternative in the future. And to paraphrase an old Rock editorial - a simple fact which seems to fall on increasingly deaf ears - bolts are PERMANENT.

Two of my favourite such arguments though are: "there's not much point in removing them, now that they're already there" and "you don't have to clip the bolts if you don't want to".

The latter is one of the most pathetic, juvenile arguments I have ever heard in my life.

In fact I feel so strongly about the issue of creeping bolt proliferation and the real agenda behind the individual arguments in each case, that I'm going to write an article and try and get it published in the next Crux.

Of course it will probably be so rambling and boring that the editors will toss it in the round filing cabinet.

Rohan.


nmonteith

20-Apr-2007
5:19:51 PM

get it to use soon Rohan. Maybe you want to write the next Loudmouth column??!


The good Dr

20-Apr-2007
6:50:41 PM

On 20/04/2007 spicelab wrote:
>
>Actually I agree with Kieran on this one, even though I think we are a
>bit too eagerly resigned to the fact that climbers WON'T remove old slings
>and that therefore they are ABSOLUTELY fixed gear. Do climbers have a
>problem with picking up any of their other garbage?

It appears to make no difference whether it is a 'trad', 'mixed' or 'sport' crag, people leave rubbish lying around. When I was at the Ben last I picked up a small assortment of crap left by climbers, the same at Arapiles and Nowra. So leaving slings etc is no problem. Unfortunately slings are difficult to remove once you have rapped on them. Bisso was right, the bolt removing protagonists have not taken the effort to remove the other fixed tat, they have just removed the items that suit themselves and with justifications that are extremely suspect. As he wrote - 'Issues of conservation are quickly forgotten when he cleans routes, his past deeds of vandalism etc (thankfully enshrined forever in classic prose in old magazines) are also forgotten.'

>
>What bothers me is that climbing is still relatively an infant sport yet
>we have embraced the bolt like it's the be-all and end-all, as though technology
>won't bring us another lower impact alternative in the future. And to
>paraphrase an old Rock editorial - a simple fact which seems to fall on
>increasingly deaf ears - bolts are PERMANENT.
>

Bolts are not permanent, they can be removed. The hole in the rock is permanent and can be patched very carefully if you know what you are doing. Climbers embrace technology that assists them. Look at the popularity of micro-cams. Wonderful devices that have made climbing in many locations protectable, thereby reducing the risk - which is one of the things that we all do when climbing, calculate the risks and make judgements. Would you climb something if you knew death was certain? If climbers have embraced the bolt so thoroughly, why are better items of natural protection being produced and sold in great quantities? Why do the companies invest so much time and resources into developing these products?

There seems to be a chain of thought in the anti-bolt fraternity that all other climbers want everything bolted and that a bolting frenzy is underway that will see all of the crags bolted into oblivion. Some climbers want all bolts, some want none, most are perfectly happy with the mixture of protection to be found at crags.

>Two of my favourite such arguments though are: "there's not much point
>in removing them, now that they're already there" and "you don't have to
>clip the bolts if you don't want to".
>
>The latter is one of the most pathetic, juvenile arguments I have ever
>heard in my life.
>
>In fact I feel so strongly about the issue of creeping bolt proliferation
>and the real agenda behind the individual arguments in each case, that
>I'm going to write an article and try and get it published in the next
>Crux.

As Bisso said on Thesarvo...

"I also don't really care to discuss the validity of my "ethics" regarding bolts, because it such a discussion would be like me trying to convince gerry god doesn't exist and man evolved from the apes." People are arguing about viewpoints, not facts, and are failing to see that it is only their opinion and as they say about opinions ... everyones got one and they all stink.

Mr Milk

21-Apr-2007
3:42:10 PM

Out of interest, are there any lovely old pitons bashed into Ben Lomonds glorious thrutches?


mousey

21-Apr-2007
4:51:43 PM

On 21/04/2007 Mr Milk wrote:
>Out of interest, are there any lovely old pitons bashed into Ben Lomonds
>glorious thrutches?

haha classic jesse talk. love it. how are ya dude?


mousey

21-Apr-2007
4:52:57 PM

by the way, while we're on the topic of the ben- does anyone have bob's email? i seem to have misplaced it and his home# was ringing out

Mr Milk

21-Apr-2007
5:39:22 PM

On 21/04/2007 mousey wrote:
>On 21/04/2007 Mr Milk wrote:
>>Out of interest, are there any lovely old pitons bashed into Ben Lomonds
>>glorious thrutches?
>
>haha classic jesse talk. love it. how are ya dude?

Wonderful thanks Josh. Even better after a day climbing drilled pockets in The Blueys.

now there's some ethics we can all agree on....


HM33

21-Apr-2007
8:51:29 PM

you shouldn't reply to josh, jesse as it just encourages him. drilled pockets are where its at man, or Is Humpty Dumpty broken :(?


tnd

23-Apr-2007
8:46:42 AM

On 20/04/2007 spicelab wrote:
>"you don't have to
>clip the bolts if you don't want to".
>
>The latter is one of the most pathetic, juvenile arguments I have ever
>heard in my life.

Why? It's perfectly logical.


oweng

23-Apr-2007
9:19:26 AM

On 23/04/2007 tnd wrote:
>On 20/04/2007 spicelab wrote:
>>"you don't have to
>>clip the bolts if you don't want to".
>>
>>The latter is one of the most pathetic, juvenile arguments I have ever
>>heard in my life.
>
>Why? It's perfectly logical.

I hate that arguement as well. It annoys me everytime I hear it.

Its true that you dont have to clip a bolt if you dont want to. The fact remains that the bolt is there. You can clip it at any time if you get in trouble. The presence of a bolt protecting a run out section of a climb destroys the enjoyment that can be obtained from conquering that run out climb, because even if you dont clip it, you know that if you had found a move to hard you could have backed off / down climbed to the bolt etc.

An analogy I would draw would be like attempting to on-site a run out climb at your limit, but having a friend set up on top of the route with a top rope ready to throw to you if you get in trouble. Kind of defeats the purpose.

Dont get me wrong, im not against bolts on climbs, or even retro bolting some climbs. But the arguement of 'you can choose not to clip' when used as justification for adding bolts to existing climbs that are defined by their run-out annoys me.

EDIT (this is off topic, not meant as a commentry on Ben Lomond bolting).


Macciza

23-Apr-2007
10:06:57 AM

>On 20/04/2007 spicelab wrote:
>>"you don't have to
>>clip the bolts if you don't want to".
>>
>>The latter is one of the most pathetic, juvenile arguments I have ever
>>heard in my life.
>
On 23/04/2007 tnd wrote:
>Why? It's perfectly logical.

What crap! It's imperfect and illogical - considering that the bolts aren't needed as you could just hang
a big chain down the route instead and make it so you could clip every link "If you wan't to" ;-}
Also handy for pulling on when they forget to put a bolt at the crux.

So I guess I can add as many bolts as I like to any of your routes then - based on your argument.
Why not just toprope it - but with lot's of slack to make it exciting?
'You don't have to lead it if you don't want to" (or can't, or are too scared) Isn't that logical . . .

jakeb

24-Apr-2007
3:08:07 PM

Word on the street!!!

Wombat Chocks instead of bolts.


rodw

24-Apr-2007
4:03:58 PM

> considering that the bolts aren't
>needed as you could just hang
>a big chain down the route instead and make it so you could clip every
>link "If you wan't to" ;-}

Just make sure its stainless steel....dont want it to beocme a rusty eyesore now do we.


Neil

24-Apr-2007
4:39:48 PM

i like it.

fixed wombats. glue in ? expansion ? bash in carrot style ?

Fish Boy

24-Apr-2007
7:12:34 PM

Wombats will naturally expand after time as the maggots eat the insides and the animal fills up with gas.


Macciza

24-Apr-2007
9:22:34 PM

Jake
Don't release to many details until the whole line is ready please.
The 'Rabbit Runners' are being bred even as we speak,
Th RP's (RatPlugs) are being certified - still a few problems with the tails though,
'Frogs' looked liked a winner until Kong sued - Might have to try something else - Are CaneToads rated?
Plus, any word from the small fluffy kitten suppliers, I might need to double up . . .
Oh and the geneticist said the 'micro HB draw monkey' idea will actually but we need to get more
'personal' in the genetic stock department. . .
Oh and that prototype 'BigGoat' was just awesome in offwidth but they do smell a bit . .
Finally the Snakes fall out too easily even when only lightly killed, slightly concussed works far better
Stay Safe


JamesMc

25-Apr-2007
5:37:56 PM

Hey Gerry,
Why don't you demolish the climbers' hut at Ben Lomond as well? After all, the reasons for not having bolts also justify not having huts, only more so.

(Actually that hut is a pretty special place to me, for personal reasons.)

James Mc

uwhp510

26-Apr-2007
8:00:15 AM

Yeah, I hate when you are climbing a classic trad route and some punk has put in a retro hut. And even
worse is when routes get retro hutted with big stainless ring huts. Seriously if you are going to put in
huts on new routes at least make them glue in carrot huts.


tnd

26-Apr-2007
9:06:28 AM

Yeah none of them poofy sport climbing Euro huts.

duglash

27-Apr-2007
4:44:24 PM

On 26/04/2007 uwhp510 wrote:
>Yeah, I hate when you are climbing a classic trad route and some punk has
>put in a retro hut. And even
>worse is when routes get retro hutted with big stainless ring huts. Seriously
>if you are going to put in
>huts on new routes at least make them glue in carrot huts.

at last GOLD!

There are 114 messages in this topic.