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risk?


mousey

16-Nov-2006
8:30:37 PM

>If the adrenaline is really flowing then I'm normally shit scared because im fearing a painful and possibly dangerous fall. This is not exactly fun at the time. If I have good gear then the adrenaline hardly comes into it.

which i think could lead to another interesting discussion... im sure many of us have done stupid things, fuggen scary things & dangerous things while climbing... at the time its (for me) usually nothing more than a suirvival instinct.
but in hindsight, do you think that (and maybe its not for everyone,.maybe just the unhinged ones amoung us :P) occasionally having these experiences, though they could easily be our downfall, do you think that in some respects they are an almost necessary part of the experience in what they can teach us about ourselves?
don't get me wrong, i dont often go looking to get myself into dodgy situations... but ive sometimes thought that maybe without these experiences I would feel that I somehow wasnt really exploring myself wholly
i dunno...this is another one of those things that i feel but cant communicate. maybe its that language barrier that drives me to take photos?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-Nov-2006
8:39:40 AM

>don't get me wrong, i dont often go looking to get myself into dodgy situations... >but ive sometimes thought that maybe without these experiences I would feel that I somehow wasnt really exploring myself wholly

Yvon Chouinard: "Climbing without risk is not really climbing".

Imo you are spot on the concept-money mousey; and you managed to communicate it.
[Btw ... Can't say I have noticed the 'risk' in your photos]?

Interesting quote from Julian Saunders (Chockstone interview), that indirectly relates to the topic of risk.

~ "Getting lost in all the movement and struggle is an amazing experience; as we all know. For me, clipping tars that experience a little, makes me feel all human and vulnerable; it brings me back to earth if you like. It reminds me of falling by virtue of the fact that it is the ramifications of such that I am trying to protect myself against. It is a necessity yes, but the less I have to do it the better. It is how myself and many others like to climb, with bolts becoming further apart the higher you get, with in reason. If you are not comfortable with falling you won’t like my routes, or you will quickly get more comfortable." ~

... this tempered with a quote (below), from Anderl Heckmair (My Life as a Mountaineer).

~ " All my thoughts and desires were of the mountains. Passion lies deep in the soul and is not to be explained. It can lead to supreme heights but also to ruin." ~


Zebedee

17-Nov-2006
2:42:10 PM

On 9/11/2006 NEVERCLIMBED32 wrote:
>I think you need to be able to differentiate between HAZARD and RISK
Not only do we need to differntiate twixt hazard and risk we need to use science to do so.
Here is a link to The British Medical Journal article on "major trauma related to gravitational challenge". It's worth a look
http://tinyurl.com/yczlvt
(experimental use of url compression hope it works)

17-Nov-2006
3:43:06 PM

Hey Zebedee maybe abseilers should apply some EBM to determine the necessity of a rope.


mousey

17-Nov-2006
4:39:01 PM

>[Btw ... Can't say I have noticed the 'risk' in your photos]?

i wasn't referring to risk in particular, i was kinda sidetracking to the general concept of words being a barrier to communication of the shit that goes on in my head, so however my situation is affecting me at the time i try to communicate that through my pics- unfortunately i dont tend to be taking photos when im runout & shitting myself, or my work'd probly convey a lot more passion... :)
what myself & my subjects get out of a photo will obviously be very different to what everyone else gets out of it cus of our physical & emotional connection to the situation depicted so im sure i see my photos very differently to most people that look at em. when i can figure out how to consistently spark those same responses in everyone else I'll be f-kn made!!!
ahhh im babbling again, sorry ill go away and make magazines or something...


manuinthewoods

17-Nov-2006
7:29:18 PM

On 17/11/2006 Zebedee wrote:
>Here is a link to The British Medical Journal article on "major trauma
>related to gravitational challenge". It's worth a look
>http://tinyurl.com/yczlvt

I'm sure that we could do such a study with the use of ropes. I don't think there is any controlled test for their effectiveness in preventing trauma related to gravitational challenge.
I think we should do it with two cohorts, giving one a placebo (rope).

Any volunteers?
Maybe I should post in that other thread about soloing...


brat

17-Nov-2006
8:48:18 PM

For more than 30 years climbing to me has always been seeing where my body's at (fitness/flexibility), my mind (ability to think laterally/overcoming fear) and reading a cliff face, a combination of 3 dimensional chess, yoga and checking out the view!

I'd rather onsight a 14 (these days with a crag guide) than dog the crap out of a 23!

Climbing is the only time I'm fully relaxed mentally, just focused on "the now"!!


mousey

18-Nov-2006
12:00:13 AM

yah, totally agree breat, climbing & snowboarding are the 2 things for me (probly climbing even more so) that offer the purifying opportunity of truly living in the moment


Nick Kaz

18-Nov-2006
10:15:16 AM

On 17/11/2006 M9iswhereitsat wrote:
>[Btw ... Can't say I have noticed the 'risk' in your photos]?

You should see some of his rigging...

I like risky challenging climbs after I have climbed them, I don't get off on being gripped just surviving it, the attraction is to the uncertainty of success and the price of failure, some writing type may say its "the importance of the now" or some poetic crap. I don't repeat these routes because its not the same anymore, compared to nice safe sport routes which I will often do a few times on different trips and get the same experience I think I would enjoy grit.

I like risky easy climbs while I'm climbing them, I'm confident I wont fall off because its easy, the uncertainty isn't there so I'm enjoying the route because its climbing and I enjoy that, I get more out of the exposure and the situation then the climbing itself.

I like to solo on the spur of the moment and I enjoy the whole time because I'm not going to fall off, I rarely solo routes I have lead, but I will lead routes I have soloed, there is probably some psychological mumbo jumbo about risk buried in that, otherwise I don't feel like I'm risking much when i solo . The moves seem more fun soloing that if I'm dragging a pile of ropes and rack, I climb quicker and smoother as well. when I plan to solo stuff I rarely end up doing it.

I don't know that any of that means anything,I take risks because I like to, but you guys seem to like over analysing stuff. kinda like my English teacher over analysing books by Hemingway in highs school, am I the only person that thinks the old man and the sea is possibly just about an old dude that catches a big fish?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

23-Nov-2006
8:59:05 AM

Good post Nik, and I can relate to much of it. Not sure about The Old Man & The Sea though, but I reckon you are entitled to take it (like a climb), at face value.
I find it an intrigueing thing how ones mental state affects their climbing.

On 16/11/2006 One Day Hero wrote:
>I was flipping through a surfing mag the other day when it occured to me.
>If a bunch of people who are into a certain activity sit around thinking
>and talking about it long enough, they will manage to convince themselves
>that they're 'the shit'. Their activity is so pure and enlightening that
>they "get it" while the rest of the world does not.
> Reading this surfing mag, it was apparent that surfers think they are
>'the shit', which is funny 'cause I'm pretty sure they can't be since being
>'the shit' is reserved for climbers.
> Crapping on about risk is one way climbers reinforce their position as
>'el shito'
> Stuff taking risks, I like to climb cause it's fun, if I feel like I'm
>about to die the fun seems to evaporate.

I think you are on to something here ODH, and I enjoyed the post.
I have thought about this for a couple of days now and my curiosity is still there.
After you have a risky experience where you have felt like your about to die; ... How do you feel afterwards (both in the short and long term) ?
In retro has this condensed / 'morphed' into fun ?

mockmockmock

23-Nov-2006
12:42:03 PM

I was sitting at a belay the other day listening to someone prattle on about climbing NOT being fun. Then I realised what he was saying was that it's not actually fun until he has the belay set up and is litening to the second grunt, groan and swear his way up only to be thanked at the top for leading it.

I realised there have been many times I have both enjoyed the climb and been scared spitless but the BEST times have always been relaxing at the belay and hearing "Thank ^%# YOU led that coz there is NO WAY I would have" I know I've even said that to my second from time to time trying to disassociate myself with having actually done the climb

Ralph


vwills

23-Nov-2006
2:36:10 PM

>After you have a risky experience where you have felt like your about
>to die; ... How do you feel afterwards (both in the short and long term)
>?
>In retro has this condensed / 'morphed' into fun ?

Immediately You would expect to feel elation but you dont.
Isolation, depression, withdrawal, difficulty concentrating are more common
If you stay at this stage then you have post traumatic stress disorder.

Most people do cope, though I doubt anyone would describe the experience as 'fun". Some start planning their next trip :)

Read Maria Coffeys (Joe Taskers ex) book where she interviews partners and relatives of those who have died in the mountains or nearly died. How they promised to give up their hazardous pursuit and then could not stay away. It provides some insight into the mountaineer mindset, and if you find yourself identifying with the climbers, and not their relatives then you'd better make a will. Mountaineers arent going out intending to die but the risk is significant especially on high peaks. Why go back? She proposes the personality type suffers a "Peter Pan" type syndrome, thriving on change and uncertainty and shunning responsibility. It should also be read if you want to consider the impact on partners and relatives especially if you are considering lying to them (as alluded to in another thread).

The dreams I have of dying are the best I've ever had....its a mad world"
(sorry dont know the artist but like the song)


billk

23-Nov-2006
2:59:43 PM

On 23/11/2006 vwills wrote:
>The dreams I have of dying are the best I've ever had....its a mad world"
> (sorry dont know the artist but like the song)
>
Just in case it comes up at a quiz night:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tears_for_Fears

Lycra climbing tights weren't the only dreadful thing about the early '80s. Synth pop is right up there!


vwills

23-Nov-2006
9:10:27 PM

Nah, its the version that was on Donny Darko that I like.

patto

23-Nov-2006
9:25:28 PM

On 23/11/2006 vwills wrote:
>Nah, its the version that was on Donny Darko that I like.
>

The donny darko version is:
Gary Jules - Mad World


IdratherbeclimbingM9

24-Nov-2006
8:58:21 AM

On 23/11/2006 vwills wrote:
>Read Maria Coffeys (Joe Taskers ex) book where she interviews partners and relatives of those who have died in the mountains or nearly died.
Got this book (Where the Mountain Casts Its Shadow) last week. Had a back-order for a long time due out of stock in Aust., ... Am looking forward to reading it but will likely save it till Chrissy hols now.

Have you read Fragile Edge (same author) ? Worth pursuing* ?
(*Already did a search of book reviews on this site; it has none for it).


mousey

25-Nov-2006
11:17:59 PM

i have been keeping a little scrapbook of musings & inspirations & quotes & photos etc over the last couple of years that i occasionally read over when i need some inspiration or creative motivation etc.... risk, unsurprisingly, is quite the motif in my little black book so i thought i'd share a couple bits out of it....

"The question of the moral effect of danger is a very curious one, but I know this and find, practically, that if you come to a dangerous place and turn back from it, though it may have been perfectly right and wise to do so, still your character has sufffered some slight deteriation; you are to that extent weaker, more lifeless, more effeninant, more liable to passion & error in future. Whereas if you go through with the danger, though it may have been apparently foolish and rash to encounter it, you come out of the encounter a stronger & better man, fitter for every sort of work and trial, and NOTHING BUT DANGER produces this effect."
- John Ruskin (exerpt from a letter to his father, from Chamonix, in 1863)


mousey

25-Nov-2006
11:22:24 PM

"At what point, I try to ask myself objectively, do statistically hazourdous, entirely elective pastimes become unethical?
Put another way; to what degree, if at all, do we owe our self preservation to those whom we profess to love, to our emotional and financial dependants?
At what point does a dangerous pastime, through its mere practice, constitute betrayal?
The question has another half; at some point, through abstinence from highly rewarding yet hazardous activities on grounds of social responsibility, do we betray ourselves?

If so, and most importantly, how do we find a balance?"

-Andrew Todhunter, 'Fall of the Phantom Lord'

One Day Hero

27-Nov-2006
5:00:44 PM

On 25/11/2006 mousey wrote:
>
>
>"At what point, I try to ask myself objectively, do statistically hazourdous,
>entirely elective pastimes become unethical?
>Put another way; to what degree, if at all, do we owe our self preservation
>to those whom we profess to love, to our emotional and financial dependants?
>At what point does a dangerous pastime, through its mere practice, constitute
>betrayal?
>The question has another half; at some point, through abstinence from
>highly rewarding yet hazardous activities on grounds of social responsibility,
>do we betray ourselves?
>
>If so, and most importantly, how do we find a balance?"
>
>-Andrew Todhunter, 'Fall of the Phantom Lord'

Nice work Andy, it's difficult to decide whether the title or the content is more of a wank. What a tool!

I bet this dude couldn't even crank V2


mousey

27-Nov-2006
7:27:34 PM

he was talking about Dan Osman, i thought i was pretty damn relevant but thats just me...

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