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Broken holds, Glue and outdoor route setters !!


Donut King

2-Oct-2003
5:03:54 PM

On 2/10/2003 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>DK,
> Actually the HVS E1 was in fact two climbs to the right, as it turns
>out you were actually climbing an E9 death route which was actually chipped,
>sanded, enhanced and glued originally.... hehehe
>..... but you got the tick, and you did it in your Jeans.....
>

lol

if the broken hold changes the climb, then it is not THE same climb.....(how can a 19 be a 23?)....new FA and update the guide book!

With boulder probs, it doest ruin the problem...it just makes it harder to do....think "the glass is half full" !! but it means that it will take some skinny power mutant to pull off the 3 angstrom hold.

dk


Donut King

2-Oct-2003
5:07:54 PM

nm,

leave it off .....the route has now been changed. Stick the hold onto the side of the bridge at burnley!!!!

i take your point about the cold chisel senario, but chipping has never been looked upon as ok and is somewhat removed from a hold falling off under "natural force" ie pulling on it with your hand.

although i could see some one saying that the 5ft crowbar they carry on their rack fell off and lodged into the crack.........


nmonteith

2-Oct-2003
5:56:59 PM

What i see is a few options when doing new routes....

1) I climb the route un-touched. A few weeks later someone pulls the crux hold and my grade 21 is suddenly a 26. My hard fought FFA is now effectivily null and void and a big ugly scar marks the route.

2) I crowbar and hammer off anything thats looks even remotely loose creating a clean route but with lots of ugly scars. I work the route for 2 years and finally tick it.

3) I put subtle glue behind a few loose looking holds. I climb the route first go. The climb stands the test of time for at least 10 years before some 100kg idiot finally rips the hold off.

I know i mostly use option 2 when doing new routes. I don't really have an opinion on what is 'right' or 'wrong'. I treat it as a case by case basis.

kieranl

2-Oct-2003
11:25:52 PM

From another perspective, I've done a fair number of new routes but there are two potential routes that I have abandoned, one at Arapiles and one in the Grampians.
On both there were crucial holds that looked really fragile so I thought that they should go while preparing the routes rather than on lead.
Do you think those holds would come off? Not on your nelly! In the end I walked away, having come too close to chipping for comfort.
The one at Arapiles has now been done by someone else (totally ignorant of what I'd done) as a variant on an existing climb. The Grampians route remains undone.
Just goes to show that there's a fine line between cleaning and chipping.


tmarsh

3-Oct-2003
11:23:33 AM

On 2/10/2003 kieranl wrote:
>Just goes to show that there's a fine line between cleaning and chipping.

Not that the rock cares either way, but...

as I see it, the difference is that when you 'clean' a route, you are getting rid of fragile rock that will, in all likelihood come off as part of the climbing process anyway. By trundling it early, you lessen the danger to yourself and your belayer. And most importantly, you do it with no regard to the change in grade that may occur with the hold gone.

Chipping is done with an aim in mind - to make a route harder or easier. Cleaning is done to get rid of loose rock, whatever the consequences may be for the grade.

That said, rapping down a route with a crowbar, hammer and wire brush looks incredibly dodgy from any angle. Do be discrete...

tim

mikl law

3-Oct-2003
12:19:25 PM

Most hard routes I've repeated at Arapiles have holds which were very different to how they started. What was there initially would have broken under bodyweight, leaving some sort of hold. They were cleaned with a certain grade in mind and produced classics. It's easy to clean them "hard" or "easy". (Unfortunately th rock in the Blueys isn't so user friendly).

I think anyone can put up a crap route. This is a bit of a waste of natural resources. I'd rather see a discretely reinforced hold on a good climb that has traffic for years, than a one move desperate that is unrepeated (becasue it's not good).

Joe

4-Oct-2003
3:17:40 PM

I agree with Mikl.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

13-Oct-2003
5:26:51 PM

On 1/10/2003 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>Any 3 or 2 star classics with glued holds ?? or any that are worth a mention.
>I didn't realize we had many in Vic. Any at Araps or Gramps ??........

There is a sizable flake just under the main roof on Ozy Direct at Mt Buffalo (a five star classic!), which is glue 're-inforced'.
This is the 1st time I had come across the practise and I regarded it as unsightly because of the excess glue 'runs' that have escaped the crack behind the flake.
The only way one would ever notice it however is to actually get within a half ropelength of it, which rules out the majority of the population.
From a freeclimbing perspective I can see the need, ... shame about the glue runs though.


nmonteith

13-Oct-2003
6:01:17 PM

Proper glue - like the stuff used to hold in ringbolts - is quite thick and does not run. Cheap aralditee and other poxy stuff have the tendancy to run all over the place.

kieranl

13-Oct-2003
10:51:11 PM

I didn't see any glue when I did Ozy but that was about 1980.


nmonteith

14-Oct-2003
8:19:23 AM

Steve Monks would have done it for the free version in the early 90s i imagine.


Phil Box

14-Oct-2003
3:24:40 PM

So are you telling me that this is uncool. Damn and I thought that this was the way of the future. =))


Sticky

14-Oct-2003
3:34:23 PM

Top photo! Where the hell was that taken? Surely not in Oz. Please say no...

Just a thought - did the person who set the climb claim an FFA?

Dalai

14-Oct-2003
3:49:03 PM

Photo posted from Rockclimbing.com and no it's not Australia, it's of a comp in Spain. Though bolted on plastic holds are not only confined to Europe.

I don't know if this has been done anywhere in Australia yet, the cheaper option is to just chip or drill holds which is probably the reason why we haven't seen it here.


Pei

14-Oct-2003
4:25:25 PM

On 14/10/2003 Dalai wrote:
>Photo posted from Rockclimbing.com and no it's not Australia, it's of a
>comp in Spain. Though bolted on plastic holds are not only confined to
>Europe.
>
>I don't know if this has been done anywhere in Australia yet, the cheaper
>option is to just chip or drill holds which is probably the reason why
>we haven't seen it here.

Here in Perth, WA there is one climb that I know of that has holds bolted on to rock. Its in a quarry ie its not on 'natural' rock. Its about a grade 19 and if I remember correctly has about 3 bolted on holds. The holds appear to be hand-made though (not store ones).

deadpoint

14-Oct-2003
5:14:34 PM

Its just not right, hard core climbers not good enough to do the natural lines resorting to tactics like this. I have nothing to say except 'Go for it Nancy Boys'.

deadpoint

14-Oct-2003
5:17:43 PM

Looking at the photo in more detail The Hardman appears to be top roping the erection


Rich

14-Oct-2003
5:32:47 PM

hey come on our climber hero tom cruise used bolt-on holds on rock in mission impossible 2 ;-);-);-) so it must be ok? hehe


Phil Box

15-Oct-2003
2:17:58 PM

Here is the discussion so far on rockclimbing.com about the above picture. In short most are less than, ahem, flattering as to someone placing plastic on real rock. Maybe we should show dinkum this pic as to where the world of sport climbing is heading. Gahhh, I slay me, I should become a professional forum troller. ;)


..::- Chris -::..

15-Oct-2003
4:05:06 PM

Photo has been touched for sure, not sure if plastic holds have been added but there
are smears / smudges all over the photo when you look at it in great detail.
Either a dodgy act or a dodgy photo, either way it's dodgy (no offence to Chocstone dodgy)

There are 41 messages in this topic.