General Climbing Discussion

Author	Docs rant thread
climbingjac 11-Jul-2006 12:46:03 PM	On 11/07/2006 Ronny wrote: >No one, devious included I would assume, thinks that Jacquie has done >anything other than an excellent effort at getting Burnley together. There's >also no doubt that it was done truely altruistically. But it is still >fine for someone to say that they don't like the way it is being run, or >would prefer it had a differnt focus. Devious did this a bit provocatively, >but that's what he did. We do not mind feedback at all - we have relied heavily on it to help identify things that needed doing at Burnley that had been overlooked. Yes we are listening. But we have to listen to hundreds of ideas and pick a happy medium that suits everyone. It would be very unwise of us to make decisions based on only one or two people - who quite frankly don't exist until a name is put to the comment. We have to listen to everyone, and make decisions accordingly. For example, in my world, I have no use for vertical walls. So if were only up to me, I may never have even thought of installing a vertical wall at Burnley. But then what about people that aren't so strong on the overhangs, or have elbow troubles, or ....? I tried to make a point in my Burnley thread that "isn't it nice people are enjoying our wall - we've been told by a retailer than Burnley newbies have been coming in buying shoes." That was the point. I also did not mention only Bogong in my post. I also mentioned two specific gyms. Many of my posts have made reference to major sponsors as well. And so they should. People's jaws hit the ground when they realise how much money has been handed to us on a silver platter so we can all have ourselves a free training facility. Noone puts up that kind of money and hides in the shadows about it. Noone. Anyway, everyone can rest happy that nothing productive like the Burnley project will ever happen again. Why would a person put up a few years of their time, and do a job that is almost full time, to listen to this kind of nonsense? Certainly not me. And not anyone else that is seeing the kind of reaction it draws. It makes me feel ashamed of being a climber, really. If if you want something, there's a way of going about it, and Neil and Simon (oops I mean drdevious) are not going about it very nicely. Posting my PMs?? Really and truly. Throwing tantrums in the Burnley thread? No thankyou very much. Most people have realised that thread is sort of special - a place to say thankyou to everyone that helped. (Not just me - there are 130 others.) Not a place for making them wish they hadn't bothered. My patience has ended on that kind of behaviour. A nicer way of introducing your feelings on the matter may have been something like "Hi, I'm a little concerned about the gyms and crags exceeding capacity with the (potential) influx of new climbers, which may lead to having to wait for ropes in the gyms, erosion at the crags etc etc etc. Would it be possible for the VCC to investigate the likelihood of this?". Your point has been made. You don't wish to share the world with others. That's unfortunate - because the world is here for all of us. Sharing was taught in kindergarten as I recall. The alternative is, I guess, stay at home and hide from the world. Have a nice day :-)
Juffries 11-Jul-2006 12:54:32 PM	As someone who is new to climbing, I think the new Burnley facility is fantastic because it gives experienced climbers somewhere to train and beginners somewhere to go to meet other climbers and to learn. The input of all the sponsors and contributors is greatly appreciated. I think its only natural that those who are interested in climbing would gravitate to such a location, but I agree that it doesn’t need a ‘hard sell’. People who have an interest in climbing, beginners and experienced climbers alike, will find out about Burnley easily enough. If people are so worried about the impact of beginners and newbie’s, take the time to talk to them and educate them. Give them good advice and point them in the right direction, encourage them to look into the VCC and Cliff Care and learn respect for climbing ethics and the crags. With that in mind if I ask for advice from experienced climbers, I would hope I am being provided with the best advice, rather than being told something for the sake of some corporate sponsor (as appreciated as their sponsorship is).
gfdonc 11-Jul-2006 12:56:26 PM	Back around 25 years ago Chris Baxter hosted Chris Bonington on a visit from the UK. The interview was written up (probably in Thrutch, or an early issue of Rock?), but one quote I remember was (approximately): "you want to keep everything about climbing here hidden under a large rock, otherwise you'll end up with overcrowding" (as in the UK scene). (There was a shot of CB seconding Skink, someone's bound to have it. Appreciate the exact quote if you can be bothered.) Guess what? We haven't kept it quiet, yet 25 years later and we're hardly overrun - one recent campfire debate was along the lines of "why are there less climbers around than there was 10 or 15 years ago?". So what? you ask. Well, some of those among us may choose to promote the sport to others. Hell, I've even been known to drag non-climber friends out for the day. Others may prefer to keep the climbing population as low as possible & enjoy the solitude. So? Each camp has the perogative and free will to pursue their own goals. So I suggest the antipromotion camp heads off and finds some nice quiet bluestone somewhere, and quit whinging about what others have achieved. Meanwhile whenever I'm at Burnley I'll be happy to answer questions from passing bikers, and spot little kids who are just giving it a go, and enjoying the sensation of climbing.
Bob Saki 11-Jul-2006 1:00:24 PM	why stop at one Burnley??!!! imagine having 3 or more of these in Melb? Based on Burnley numbers it would seem feasible..............................
drdeviousii 11-Jul-2006 1:30:03 PM	there is a MASSIVE difference between "...dragging non-climber friends out for the day..." & having a story aired on prime time TV!! The general public already knows about urban bouldering. The Tookak tractors drive past Richmond Bridge everyday & they ask us about Richmond Bridge everyday. The Footscray junkies see the punters bouldering on bluestone in their 'hood everyday, & they ask about it. If these people have even a passing interest in climbing they will seek informtation themselves - the suggestion that we need to "sell" Burnely is insulting to both climbers & non-climbers alike. The world is there to be shared - not problem there. But let's be realistic & share it with a reasonable number of people. Burnely already has 60+ climbers on any day of decent weather. Once the story's aired on the teeev, you can guarantee this number will triple. How about letting people discover it themselves - rather than having it rammed down their throats. As soon as we dared to speak a civil word against Burnely, the Burnely mafia deleted our comments locked the threads. All without rhyme or reason. Given the circumstances you shouldn't be suprised that your PM's were posted posted in public. We've said more than once what this thread is about. This thread is testament to the fact that we are not the only ones with these views.zzzT.
BA 11-Jul-2006 1:30:35 PM	On 10/07/2006 drdeviousii wrote: >It does not have to be crowded. Featuring the wall on Coxys Big Break, >or other such nonsense, is >only promoting the overuse of a very limited resource. Do we really need >to actively encourge more >climbers? My these things do take off quickly don't they? Have a look one day, return a day later and the universe has imploded. IF Coxy's Big Break is to mean the end of climbing as we know it, then expect the entire population of the eastern seaboard of Australia to be at Mount Buffalo next summer. The will be huge lines of people waiting at the base of Peroxide Blonde and Maharajah and when you are stuck in this line awaiting your turn, blame Steve, Malcolm and Zoe. What? You missed it? Oh well, that's a few people less who'll now take up climbing I suppose. This was the TV show that led to the hoo-ha about belaying off the fence on the Horn Lookout. Personally I don't think shows on TV lead to an increase in climber numbers but they might encourage lapsed climbers (such as myself) to get off their lazy bums and get back out climbing. Most of your questions are irrelvant. 1. How many people are going to be abseiling the walls at Burnley? 2. Don't use chalk :-) 3. Every Climb? Or just the climb you want to do at that particular moment and that particular time. 4. Re-open the carparks at the bottom of The Plaque area and don't close the road at Araps in winter time? 4. The exception that proves the rule; "Do you want to see the bush trampled to death?" No! 5. "Do you want to see more government regulation in climbing?" If the CURRENT crop of climbers don't regulate themselves then outside governance seems a given. From another post it seems that this could well be an IDEAL way to introduce people to climbing. Fumbling around in loosely-laced, worn-out runners, getting advice from other people at the wall about how to do the moves. Finding out about how to make the transition into the climbing gyms and then, finally the big outdoors. Almost sounds like the mentoring system of old, doesn't it? But if they do pick up the attitudes being ascribed to them by the Doctors Devious, it can only be by association with climbers who share those attitudes, and you have to ask yourself "would you like climbers like that sharing this facilty?" If you answer "no" (as any right thinking person would), then be nice to the bumblies/newbs and climbing in Victoria will be the better for it.
timmy 11-Jul-2006 1:33:43 PM	On 11/07/2006 Ronny wrote: >Timmy can you identify the personal attack in this for me? Where does >it even mention a person other than Chris Shepherd? First post of page 2. >The only reason that anyone thinks that this thread contains personal >attack is if they are unable to distinguish between the person and the >project the person is involved in. Its perfectly acceptable for someone >to comment on something and expect that it won't be shouted down as a personal >insult. Are we to have a situation where as soon as someone does something, >the way in which it was done is immune from criticism? Critisicm is awesome. Personal attacks in a public forum, not on. >No one, devious included I would assume, thinks that Jacquie has done >anything other than an excellent effort at getting Burnley together. There's >also no doubt that it was done truely altruistically. But it is still >fine for someone to say that they don't like the way it is being run, or >would prefer it had a differnt focus. Devious did this a bit provocatively, >but that's what he did. Yes he did, that's my beef.
Onsight 11-Jul-2006 1:40:32 PM	On 11/07/2006 climbingjac wrote: >If if you want something, there's a way of going about it, and >Neil and Simon (oops I mean drdevious) are not going about it very nicely. > Posting my PMs?? Really and truly. Throwing tantrums in the Burnley >thread? No thankyou very much. Hmmm... Accusing me of using an alias and posting you PM's when I have done no such thing is pretty disgraceful I think Jacqui. What a bloody insult! And I don't think I have never posted to your Burnley thread. Get you facts straight. Seems like a personal attack itself... I made my opinion about censorship abundantly clear to you in private recently. This has gone too far. I’m standing up for Drdevious’s right to pose his questions, that’s all.
timmy 11-Jul-2006 1:46:28 PM	On 11/07/2006 BA wrote: >On 10/07/2006 drdeviousii wrote: >>It does not have to be crowded. Featuring the wall on Coxys Big Break, snip >But if they do pick up the attitudes being ascribed to them by the Doctors >Devious, it can only be by association with climbers who share those attitudes, >and you have to ask yourself "would you like climbers like that sharing >this facilty?" If you answer "no" (as any right thinking person would), >then be nice to the bumblies/newbs and climbing in Victoria will be the >better for it. Well communicated BA. My sentiments exactly, minus my intolerance for... well, I'll stop there. See you all down at new Burnley some time in the near future.
Stuey 11-Jul-2006 2:12:30 PM	On 11/07/2006 BA wrote: >On 10/07/2006 drdeviousii wrote: >IF Coxy's Big Break is to mean the end of climbing as we know it, then >expect the entire population of the eastern seaboard of Australia to be >at Mount Buffalo next summer. Obviously tongue in cheek, but stuff on TV and in Newpapers has a big effect on the number of people that use a facility - Especially once they realise that its free. And its even worse if theres some suggestion that its fashionable. I remember the influx of new punters at my old gym every New Year when the local paper advertised it as some form of 'alternative exercise'.
drdeviousii 11-Jul-2006 2:18:20 PM	most of our comments have been blown totally out of proportion. we are not hardliners who want the place to ourselves. we enjoy climbing with others. this comment came from a discussion amoungst a group of friends a week ago. the post about sponsors was a catalyst for our reply. we actually questioned the marketing of the wall in a previous post in the burnly topic: On 26/05/2006 climbingjac wrote: >Dear climbers, >We will be routesetting on the vertical wall tomorrow. If all goes well, it should be open for business >by Sunday. >This wall will be THE wall that brings new people into our sport. and we replied >I don't see the attraction of more climbers. I quite like it just the way it is. what we said isn't new and it appears several other people feel the same way. we don't expect radical change we just ask that our opinion is considered. deleting our comment shows our opinion was not considered. we have never "thrown a tantrum" or posted nonsense on the burnly thread. we just expressed an alternative viewpoint which has incited vigorous debate. the fact that the debate appears to have turned personal is regrettable.
nmonteith 11-Jul-2006 2:25:56 PM	On 11/07/2006 BA wrote: >IF Coxy's Big Break is to mean the end of climbing as we know it, then >expect the entire population of the eastern seaboard of Australia to be >at Mount Buffalo next summer. The will be huge lines of people waiting >at the base of Peroxide Blonde and Maharajah and when you are stuck in >this line awaiting your turn, blame Steve, Malcolm and Zoe. I think there is a difference between a show about scary looking Mt Buffalo and a free outdoor gym in the CBD of Melbourne! I quite like your mentoring comparison Bill! I've already seen one climber down there wearing their harness whilst bouldering (her excuse was that her chalkbag was attached to it?!).
DaCrux 11-Jul-2006 2:37:14 PM	Drdeviousii, have you considered that Burnley encourages INDIVIDUALS to climb? I think when people talk about overcrowding they’re normally referring to commercial or scout groups overtaking camp sites or groups of school kids turning up at gyms and dogging intermediate climbs because they have no idea what they’re doing. I don’t agree with the way your posts were deleted, but if you’re opposed to Burnley – don’t climb there, and don’t criticise people who spent months organising the project and convincing sponsors to donate money, holds, etc. You should consider yourselves lucky anyway – we only have one climbing gym in Adelaide and a few average crags – although they’re pretty close to the city. Now that’s something to whinge about.
rodw 11-Jul-2006 3:22:45 PM	On 11/07/2006 DaCrux wrote: > You should consider yourselves lucky >anyway – we only have one climbing gym in Adelaide and a few average crags >– although they’re pretty close to the city. Now that’s something to whinge >about. Well in sydney we only have....ah forget we are blessed, plenty of bouldering, climbing and heaps of gyms :)....sorry couldn't help myself, had to gloat. Back to whinging about Burnley if you must.
DaCrux 11-Jul-2006 3:32:29 PM	On 11/07/2006 rodw wrote: >Well in sydney we only have....ah forget we are blessed, plenty of bouldering, >climbing and heaps of gyms :)....sorry couldn't help myself, had to gloat. > Yeah but it probably takes you 2hrs to get to them with your traffic ;)
nmonteith 11-Jul-2006 3:54:50 PM	On 11/07/2006 DaCrux wrote: >I think when people talk about overcrowding they’re normally referring >to commercial or scout groups overtaking camp sites or groups of school >kids turning up at gyms and dogging intermediate climbs because they have >no idea what they’re doing. Thats an interesting point DaCrux. Can commercial and other groups (scouts etc) use the Burnley wall without Parks Victoria approval? Is there a some sort of application and booking system for these groups? There will be no doubt that they will wish to use the wall in the future.
manacubus 11-Jul-2006 4:13:15 PM	drdeviousii, can you please stop using the royal "we"? A single user on Chockstone shouldn't be representing a group. Unless you're schizophrenic. If your mates want to post, tell them to sign up.
Richard 12-Jul-2006 1:16:10 PM	how's this supposed overcrowding going to occur? is someone suggesting that these new bumlies are going to be taking up routes on the AME wall or Tiapan next weekend? These beginers will help make gyms profitable and stay open - as cliffhanger said recently if they did not have a school group with a regular booking on one night of the week. they'd be closed that night. That doesn't sound good, does it? Cheers
nmonteith 12-Jul-2006 1:40:16 PM	Cliffhanger is ridiculously crowded during tuesday nights rush hour! Bumblies turn into good climbers remarkably quickly - there are many examples of guys/girls cranking grade 25s+ within their first few months of trying the sport.
nmonteith 12-Jul-2006 1:41:58 PM	On 11/07/2006 nmonteith wrote: >Can commercial and other groups (scouts >etc) use the Burnley wall >without Parks Victoria approval? Is there a some sort of application and >booking system for these >groups? There will be no doubt that they will wish to use the wall in >the future. bump. Anyone got an answer to this?

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