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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 47
Author
Questions regarding routes, bolt and grades.

bigchris
17-Mar-2018
10:27:46 AM
Call it my adventurous nature and maybe a love for suffering, as I climb more and more routes which don't appear to be very often climbed, I have come up with a few questions.

I was climbing at Buffalo last weekend, and on a climb which I don't think anyone has been on (or in) for a very, very, very long time. On our way up, philly noticed a whole heap of different bits of tat at what appeared to be the end of the pitch (it was a two pitch route). It looked like it had become part of the rock, and to its right, there was seat belt webbing and a slightly newer piece of rope (slightly) which had been used to bail.

The pitch above was an absolute joy, but I did have a 9 and a 12 Valley Giant. The tat was obviously there because people would have been horrified at the run out with zero gear in the second pitch. The start of the second pitch of the climb had two rusty carrots. I clipped the first one and not the second because I could reach the VG9 into the wide roof above me.

Here are my questions.

1. The route was put up in the early 70's, so I assume was bolted around then. The carrots are rusty and shit, and probably might hold a fall. However, I would assume that they are one of the reasons that the climb is not climbed (because they look totally dodgy). The second one which appears to be 4 or 5 mm bolt and probably has rusted through, and also is probably not very deep into the rock, seeing it would have been hand drilled.

Is it ok to rebolt these with new solid bolts and hangers? I've sent the original ascensionist an email but he has not gotten back to me. Is this generally the done deal? If it needs replacing just do it?

I think the route would see ascents if this was the case. I feel very comfortable in the wide stuff but some people might look at the old crap bolts and bail.

2. The route was hilariously under graded, I said 16, but depending on your body size and if you had access to wide gear or not (irrelevant) but I think it should go at 18 or 19. I guess that is just historical Buffalo grading? Or should it be regraded? I've put on thecrag.com what I think it should be as a personal grade (everyone can see this) but have left the original ascent details there.

3. The tat is old and ugly, and might be ok to rap off (its obviously been done before). Cut it or leave it there?

4. As Rod has told me numerous times, Mt Buffalo is a convoluted area to find your way around. I'm glad that people have written guidebooks etc, but even then i've found it difficult. I feel that everyone should be taking pictures of where they climb and putting them up on the crag so that people can more easily find their way around. I've made it a personal goal to upgrade pictures on the crag so that everyone can find their way around. Not a question, but rebolting old climbs when they need it and doing this is my way to give back to the climbing community. I'd hate for older climbers who know the place well to either stop climbing/die and we lose all of the information and local knowledge that they have.

JamesMc
Online Now
18-Mar-2018
4:01:23 PM
A couple of new bolts on The Pinch will bother nobody.
One Day Hero
18-Mar-2018
5:04:26 PM
You have to try to be realistic about how popular things will be. A granite offwidth could get 15 retrobolts and still never get climbed. How's the lichen and loose crystal situation? Brushing moss is hard work, but is often the best thing you can do to renovate old climbs.

goshen
18-Mar-2018
5:51:51 PM
Putting topos on the Crag is great - but try to put up topos of walls, with all the climbs on them; rather than one topo per climb, which gets very tedious to wade though tonnes of images, especially when download or printing the PDF guide.
Douglas H
18-Mar-2018
8:17:49 PM
Re your first question:

5.1 Unsafe fixed protection should be reported to a representative of the local climbing group. (You have just done).

5.2-5.3 Unsafe fixed protection should, where practicable, be replaced by the local climbing community, the first ascentionist or other experienced and interested climber. Carrot bolts requiring the placing of a bolt-plate should only be replaced with a glue in hangerless machine bolt, except in situations where a hangerless bolt may be unsafe such as on an overhang or at a tenuous clip with a dangerous fall

Source: VCC bolting policy found at https://vicclimb.org.au/downloads/

Harvey
kieranl
19-Mar-2018
6:20:16 AM
If this is the Pinch then the bolts were placed in 1970 on the FA. It would help if you'd mentioned the climb name.

Replacing existing rubbish bolts on an unpopular route with new FH is fine, as James said, just do it. Ideally try to extract the originals and reuse the holes. Not always possible, especially with thin mild steel carrots which often break in the hole.

Yes, use FH rather than glue-in carrots. Glue-in carrots are really only acceptable when there are issues of visual intrusion.

Grading : If this is the Pinch then it was originally graded 12 with 2 bolts for aid by BA and Bangla. IT was freed by Rod Young at grade 16 in 1975. They were all pretty solid on Buffalo wide cracks so I'd be a bit wary about upgrading it.

Tat : Yes, please remove.

And thanks for the work, though I can promise you that I'll never get on this climb.

bigchris
19-Mar-2018
6:51:15 AM
On 19-Mar-2018 kieranl wrote:
>If this is the Pinch then the bolts were placed in 1970 on the FA. It would
>help if you'd mentioned the climb name.

In this case yes, but I was asking as a general question for routes all over Buffalo :)

>
>Replacing existing rubbish bolts on an unpopular route with new FH is
>fine, as James said, just do it. Ideally try to extract the originals and
>reuse the holes. Not always possible, especially with thin mild steel carrots
>which often break in the hole.

Yep cool. I understand.

>
>Yes, use FH rather than glue-in carrots. Glue-in carrots are really only
>acceptable when there are issues of visual intrusion.

Yep. I'll try and use the original the holes.

>
>Grading : If this is the Pinch then it was originally graded 12 with 2
>bolts for aid by BA and Bangla. IT was freed by Rod Young at grade 16 in
>1975. They were all pretty solid on Buffalo wide cracks so I'd be a bit
>wary about upgrading it.

I'll leave it as a personal grade. Beware though, as a climb at 16, it's totally sandbagged :D

>
>Tat : Yes, please remove.

I'll cut the old tat next time I'm up there.

>
>And thanks for the work, though I can promise you that I'll never get
>on this climb.

You might love it!

bigchris
19-Mar-2018
6:54:18 AM
On 18-Mar-2018 goshen wrote:
>Putting topos on the Crag is great - but try to put up topos of walls,
>with all the climbs on them; rather than one topo per climb, which gets
>very tedious to wade though tonnes of images, especially when download
>or printing the PDF guide.

I understand. I try my best to put whole walls up, but in the case of The Gulch at The Cathedral, you can't see Jaws or the Chimney and the like, so i've put up individual photos. The back wall with the cracks i've put up as a whole wall.
BA
19-Mar-2018
8:01:12 AM
On 19-Mar-2018 kieranl wrote:
>If this is the Pinch then the bolts were placed in 1970 on the FA. It would
>help if you'd mentioned the climb name.

>Grading : If this is the Pinch then it was originally graded 12 with 2
>bolts for aid by BA and Bangla. IT was freed by Rod Young at grade 16 in
>1975. They were all pretty solid on Buffalo wide cracks so I'd be a bit
>wary about upgrading it.

It must be a great climb! I'd been following this discussion and until you mentioned I'd been on the FA I had no idea I was involved. Back in the day, when an aid bolt was placed by us it was a 1/4" diameter, so it might not be as bad as you think. BUT, after 48 years I wouldn't trust them. Since they were aid bolts maybe just replace one of them with something bomber to use as pro.

bigchris
19-Mar-2018
8:44:37 AM
On 19-Mar-2018 BA wrote:
>On 19-Mar-2018 kieranl wrote:
>>If this is the Pinch then the bolts were placed in 1970 on the FA. It
>would
>>help if you'd mentioned the climb name.
>
>>Grading : If this is the Pinch then it was originally graded 12 with
>2
>>bolts for aid by BA and Bangla. IT was freed by Rod Young at grade 16
>in
>>1975. They were all pretty solid on Buffalo wide cracks so I'd be a bit
>>wary about upgrading it.
>
>It must be a great climb! I'd been following this discussion and until
>you mentioned I'd been on the FA I had no idea I was involved. Back in
>the day, when an aid bolt was placed by us it was a 1/4" diameter, so it
>might not be as bad as you think. BUT, after 48 years I wouldn't trust
>them. Since they were aid bolts maybe just replace one of them with something
>bomber to use as pro.

Yeah cool. I'll be up there in 2 weeks so I might just replace the high one. That looks like its buggered and the bottom one doesn't really do anything to keep you off the deck. But in any case, I really enjoyed it as a climb!

ajfclark
20-Mar-2018
11:40:06 AM
Is there good gear between the belay and the first bolt?

bigchris
20-Mar-2018
12:20:35 PM
On 20-Mar-2018 ajfclark wrote:
>Is there good gear between the belay and the first bolt?



Ummmmm.....there's no gear. The first bolt is about 2 meters, the second bolt about 3.5 meters, and then there is an almost body width chimney for about 25 meters. If you don't have a super big tube chock, big bro or Valley Giant (Valley Giants rock btw), you've got no gear from the bolts to the top. And when I say no gear, there is actually zero gear. Not even a seam for an RP! :D :D :D
kieranl
20-Mar-2018
12:27:18 PM
If the second bolt is 3.5 metres up with no other gear at the start of the second pitch it sounds like both bolts need replacing - unless that second bolt is a really easy clip. You don't want to think about taking a factor 2 onto the belay trying to reach the first bolt.

bigchris
20-Mar-2018
12:51:28 PM
On 20-Mar-2018 kieranl wrote:
>If the second bolt is 3.5 metres up with no other gear at the start of
>the second pitch it sounds like both bolts need replacing - unless that
>second bolt is a really easy clip. You don't want to think about taking
>a factor 2 onto the belay trying to reach the first bolt.

You wouldn't factor 2 onto the belay. You'd land on the floor of the cave which is about 4 meters deep by about 3 meters wide. Once you've climbed the first pitch you kinda scramble over a boulder and move further in to where the climb goes.

The bolt is relatively easy to clip, but I reckon one really good bolt would take the place of two crappy ones. The issue is (not a huge issue), because they are aid bolts, there in the way of where you put your back against the wall. I'd move the new bolt (or bolts) about 0.5 of a meter further in to the cave so they're out of the climbers way.

Jayford4321
20-Mar-2018
1:53:24 PM
On 19-Mar-2018 bigchris wrote:
>On 19-Mar-2018 kieranl wrote:
>>If this is the Pinch then the bolts were placed in 1970 on the FA. It would help if you'd mentioned the climb name.
>
>>Grading : If this is the Pinch then it was originally graded 12 with 2
>>bolts for aid by BA and Bangla. IT was freed by Rod Young at grade 16 in
>>1975. They were all pretty solid on Buffalo wide cracks so I'd be a bit
>>wary about upgrading it.
>
>I'll leave it as a personal grade. Beware though, as a climb at 16, it's totally sandbagged :D
>
Uneed2 get BA to giveU tha recipe 4 growing cajones cos they graded it 12 wiff using 2 aid pointz just to get themselfs establishD in2 tha chimney , so if U din't find tha start of that 2nd pitch where they aided 2 B tha crux , then Ur retrograding tha chimney is way off mark cos they reckon tha chimney party is G12.
It only got G16 due RY freeing tha aid.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
20-Mar-2018
10:09:03 PM
On 20-Mar-2018 bigchris wrote:
>On 20-Mar-2018 ajfclark wrote:
>>Is there good gear between the belay and the first bolt?
>
>
>
>Ummmmm.....there's no gear. The first bolt is about 2 meters, the second
>bolt about 3.5 meters, and then there is an almost body width chimney for
>about 25 meters. If you don't have a super big tube chock, big bro or Valley
>Giant (Valley Giants rock btw), you've got no gear from the bolts to the
>top. And when I say no gear, there is actually zero gear. Not even a seam
>for an RP! :D :D :D

and kieranl wrote...
>Grading : If this is the Pinch then it was originally graded 12 with 2 bolts for aid by BA and Bangla. IT was freed by Rod Young at grade 16 in 1975. They were all pretty solid on Buffalo wide cracks so I'd be a bit wary about upgrading it.


Although I haven't climbed with Bill Andrews (who led the pitch in question), I've had the pleasure of climbing with his partner of the day Peter Watling, on a couple of other nearby-ish offwidthy style chimneys and gutters at Mt Buffalo...
As a result of that experience I vouch first hand for the run-out style in which they were done and of which was considered normal not only back then, but also by some of us still today...

Modern generation climbers consider the style involved as an old school sandbag, even with gear that these days can protect some of it.
Run outs have always been daunting, though chimney thrutching was almost an essential ingredient in one's climbing apprenticeship back then, with few these days acquiring the head-space / comfort zone necessary to tackle them confidently, due the required style largely falling out of vogue...
The most recent example of demonstrating the necessary ability characteristics that I'm aware of, is Singer Smith free-soloing most everything of similar nature out at The Horn...

When I get some free time I shall reproduce a few photos from an original Mt Buffalo Guidebook and post them here to demonstrate more clearly what was involved.

... Done.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic


Image and video hosting by TinyPic


armstp
21-Mar-2018
9:40:08 AM
M9 is right about the style of climbing. The standard introductory routes to Mt Buffalo climbing in the mid 70s were the chimney cracks on the back of the Cathedral, The Mudshark, Calliope, Grunter. These are all long, unprotected grunts up narrow chimneys. We thought of them as fairly safe due to the security of being locked in a chimney. I note that these routes are listed but not described on the Crag site, and there are no registered ascents in recent times.

I was climbing with Rod Young at Buffalo in late 75. This was our very first climbing trip there and our very first route at Buffalo was a series of these chimneys linked together. Rod would have freed The Pinch not long after, possibly the next day. He had only started climbing regularly a few months earlier.

bigchris
21-Mar-2018
12:40:26 PM
Yeah, for sure. As I climb at buffalo more, ill be climbing most of these hopefully. The old school slog is my fave. That way, I get them all to myself and everyone else can have the popular ones!
mikllaw
21-Mar-2018
1:11:29 PM
The early developers in Red Rocks, Nevada, thought that if you were in an offwidth you didn't need a runner. More so for a chimney.

potex
23-Mar-2018
8:24:26 PM
>Carrot bolts requiring the placing of a bolt-plate
>should only be replaced with a glue in hangerless machine bolt.
>
>Source: VCC bolting policy found at https://vicclimb.org.au/downloads/
>
>Harvey

What a retarded policy. Screw what the VCC says if the carrot is rusted and dangerous replace it with modern hardware like a ring bolt or fixed hanger. This hat tipping to "tradition" is rediculous.

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There are 47 messages in this topic.

 

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