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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 88
Author
The Irish Solution to The Ben Lomond Problem
rowan
24-Sep-2017
5:51:15 PM
Right and wrong are not objective terms
Lee C
24-Sep-2017
7:55:35 PM
Apologies if this has been mentioned already, I have only partially kept up with this thread.

While I think the Irish solution has some merit it definitely has a major disadvantage over topping out or rap stations (tat or bolted). The disadvantage being that it means there would be a rope hanging over a route someone may want to climb (in particular; try to climb onsight). That sucks.

The good Dr
25-Sep-2017
2:39:42 PM
The obvious solution has been completely overlooked. Install any rap stations using pitons and shackles. Pitons have been used at Ben Lomond since the early days and still recommended for use (e.g. see the ice climbing guide). There are still old pins lingering on routes and not a word about removing these.

Problem solved,
widewetandslippery
25-Sep-2017
6:59:31 PM
On 24-Sep-2017 Lee C wrote:
>Apologies if this has been mentioned already, I have only partially kept
>up with this thread.
>
>While I think the Irish solution has some merit it definitely has a major
>disadvantage over topping out or rap stations (tat or bolted). The disadvantage
>being that it means there would be a rope hanging over a route someone
>may want to climb (in particular; try to climb onsight). That sucks.
>

top roping is well under rated. my new crag is a top roper or non roper. I reckon bolts on top rules ok
RhythmSection
26-Sep-2017
9:48:17 AM
On 24-Sep-2017 Tastrad wrote:

>The slippery slope is real. The first bolts went in on the Organ Pipes
>in the early 90's to the dismay of many old timers, and now the place is
>completely festooned with bolts.

I'm not of the era of classical pipes climbing but many routes from the 60's,70's,80's that i've repeated up there had/have a shit load of fixed pitons in them. It seems a pretty natural progression to go from fixed pitons to bolts. Why is the piton not looked at with the same level of distaste in people with staunch "traditional ethics" as bolts? There are some magnificent bolted/mixed routes on the mountain but there are also some worthless ones. Ben Lomond and the mountain are also two completely different places with separate histories and "essences" (by that I mean the feeling one gets when there) and I'd never want the two to be like each other.

Doug
26-Sep-2017
4:53:48 PM
On 26-Sep-2017 RhythmSection wrote:
>On 24-Sep-2017 Tastrad wrote:
>
>>The slippery slope is real. The first bolts went in on the Organ Pipes
>>in the early 90's to the dismay of many old timers, and now the place
>is completely festooned with bolts.
>
Ben Lomond and the mountain are also two completely
>different places with separate histories and "essences" (by that I mean
>the feeling one gets when there) and I'd never want the two to be like
>each other.

Hear hear. And as to the "slippery slope is real" argument, the first bolts on the Organ Pipes went in sometime in the 1960's, with the installation of the rap station on Northern Buttress. There were no bolts added for about 30 years. And as far as "old timers" being dismayed, I can't think of anyone who hasn't been happy to use the rap stations on the Pipes - or that thinks, on balance, bolted routes have been beneficial rather than a blight the crag. The Pipes have become to Hobartians what the Gorge is to Launcestonians, but on a scale of X 100. People think nothing of scooting up the mountain to do a route or three - trad or bolted - after work. As you say the two are very different places. Almost everyone I know accepts the argument that the cliffs of Ben Lomond should remain bolt-free. Many also believe that a few rap stations would - on balance, be beneficial.
Wendy
27-Sep-2017
7:23:59 AM
On 24-Sep-2017 Tastrad wrote: stuff
Great, we are now acknowledging that the argument has all to do with abstract ideals and all the other arguments are tangents. No worries. Argue for your ideal all you want.

>The issue has nothing to do with safety. Climbers since 1970 safely negotiated
>the access and descent from crags on Ben Lomond without bolted rap stations.
>Bob took a screamer or two, but no-one came to grief accessing or descending
>the cliffs..and there was no tat on the Flutes either. We climbed to the
>top and walked down.
>The rap stations went in for convenience..not safety..and also to protect
>the descent gully. But this is a nonsense reason, as the descent gully
>is primarily on scree slope. People also seem to forget about the access
>gully which was doubly trashed when the bolts were in place..accessing
>and descending from the crag via the same gully.

There was tat on the flutes on my first trip there in 2001. I do actually think there is a safety and erosion argument to be made. Sure, people survived doing dodgy stuff. Individuals will always survive doing the odd dodgy thing. But there is a lot more pressure of numbers now, and that increases the likelihood of an accident plus the erosion.
>
>As for Wendy's contribution. Seriously, are you on the same drugs as the
>yes campaign for same-sex marriage? Just because alot of people agree with
>it, doesn't mean that it's right. I chuckle when I hear people say that
>the majority want bolted rap stations on Ben Lomond. Their majority is
>the peer group they talk to at the pub or around campfires. But what about
>the majority I talk to; the dozens of people who pioneered the new routes
>on the mountain over the last 47 years, who hate the idea of any bolts
>on the mountain whatsoever, including rap stations. Their opinion has the
>most value and weight because of the time, effort and emotional investment
>in the mountain over many years.

I'm hardly the person to argue that the majority view is right just because it's the majority view. You might have noticed a tendency towards non-conventional ideas. I'm arguing the slippery slope argument is wrong.
>
>Tat only appeared since the bolts were removed in 2008, and now a well
>meaning person has installed a chain to replace it. The tat is the convenience
>mentality again, littering the cliff, too lazy to walk down, bringing a
>sport climbing attitude to a big alpine cliff and not willing to embrace
>the whole trad ethic. The weetbix is not an issue on the established classics.
>I've done Defender, Rigaudon, Ramadan, Barbe di Vendetta, Rajah, many times
>and never broken a hold on the upper pitches. If you don't top out, you
>haven't done the climb.
>
There so is weetbix at the top of those routes! I think you have just become acclimatised to it.

> I used the abseil bolts on Ben Lomond
>for the 8 years or so they were in place. But when a couple of people were
>seriously considering bolting climbs, I argued that the mountain should
>be bolt free. But the would be bolter came back with the argument that
>it wasn't bolt free, because of the abseil bolts; that a precedent, grey
>area was established. To have a bolt free mountain, there had to be no
>ambiguity and the rap bolts had to go.

There's no ambiguity in stating rap anchor only, no bolted routes either. If you want to see ambiguity, you can see it anywhere - including in fixed rap ropes, tat and chain.
> Sooner or later, rap stations would
>appear on every buttress on the mountain, because there is no logical reason
>to restrict it just to the Flutes, and then how about that lovely arete?

here we are, back at slippery slopes ...
>
>And unless they learn self reliance in the mountains, they will always
>be bolt dependent. But then how can we climb safely on Ben Lomond?..learn
>the traditional skills.

Um, if you can't actually do some solid trad climbing, you can't even get to where the rap anchors would be? You don't "learn" traditional skills on a cliff like Ben Lomond. It's already a bit beyond that.
>
>Which reminds me Wendy, the guidebook does describe the top down access
>via the plateau. So for your summer holiday in Tassie, check out the guide
>at climbtasmania.com.au , get your static rope and come on down.

Ok, so later guides might be a bit more forthcoming on the topic. In an amusing aside, I just checked Douglas's copy from 2005 and it says you could walk to the top and find the rap anchors. It is written as a secondary option though. But because I am quite keen on convenience climbing, I probably will go the rap in from the top option. I won't be deluding my self that I am going for any sort of traditional experience in the process though.
mikllaw
27-Sep-2017
7:37:13 PM
The 'traditional' way of doing anything hard on trad at Pt Perp is to rap in down the route. Thus adding another layer of convenience to the onsight. Rap ins rule!

ChuckNorris
28-Sep-2017
4:55:49 PM
How about "The Asian solution to Tastrads Irish problem with Ben"

https://instagram.com/p/BZkcBEfnp4w/
simone
28-Sep-2017
6:52:48 PM
On 28-Sep-2017 Stugang wrote:
>How about "The Asian solution to Ben's problem"?
>
>https://instagram.com/p/BZkcBEfnp4w/

Awesomely bomber!
I wouldn't worry about the anchor, the anchor knot, or padding of sharp edges too much, because he is wearing a helmet so he must be safety conscious and thinking he's actually safe; not unlike some gymby-sport climbers I see in the blueys from time to time.

ChuckNorris
28-Sep-2017
9:18:44 PM
It's a hat not a helmet.

So unless it is NASA approved Kevlar it's probably little value other than containing the spread of mashed brain.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6-Oct-2017
9:02:03 PM
On 13-Sep-2017 Wendy wrote:
>(snip)
>The tatt all over Ben Lomond is crap. the chain solution is still a ridiculous
>compromise. Just because it is theoretically removable doesn't mean that
>it's not still way more visual than a bolted anchor, it can't be placed
>in the most appropriate place for the job and in effect, it is going to
>just stay there in the same way a bolted anchor would.
>
>(snip)
>I could probably annoy a lot of people with explaining why I don't take
>a lot of English crags and ethics as an example. I don't think the rusty
>star pickets that serve as anchors at Pembroke are any improvement on a
>bolted anchor. They are ugly and crappy. But really, "tradition" has a
>lot of fixed gear and aiding. Have a read of Vanessa's article in VL about
>what "traditional" ascents left all over Ball's Pyramid. And if you are
>so keen on the adventure, doesn't having the escape route of a fixed line
>ruin that? Hell, I would prussic up the last pitch rather than climb that
>weetbix. Is it not visually invasive to have a fixed line running down
>the cliff as well?
>
>Ben Lomond is hardly a last bastion of bolt free rock. Most of the rock
>around the country is in fact bolt free. You can go and have the full experience
>of adventure climbing on all sorts of little or untrafficed rock. Being
>a national park also has no relevance to provision of sensible anchors.
>National parks around the country are full of bolts. Climbing always has
>an impact on the environment and no crag is pristine, especially once information
>about it is in the public domain. You say no one is complaining about
>not having anchors. Well, they are by their actions. That's why the cliff
>is covered in tatt.
>
>I am all for a couple of sensibly located bolt anchors. Slippery slopes
>are logical fallacies. You can use them to argue against anything. In actual
>fact, we set boundaries that prevent slides down slippery slopes all the
>time. Same sex marriage does not lead to child marriage because we can
>acknowledge that child marriage is a different and unacceptable issue.
>These arguments are just fear mongering.
>
I've been following this thread with interest.
I support Gerry inasmuch as I like the idea he is putting forward and the reasons for it, implied or otherwise!

I suspect that you are having a bet both ways Wendy including a little fear mongering as slippery slopes are real(!), and uwhp510 has called you out on it.

As for your Balls Pyramid example, all that I read in VL was; (to quote Vanessa);
On our climb the relics of previous climbers were apparent, with rusting
bolts, friable manila rope reclaimed by vegetation, and the odd disintegrating piton and even a wooden peg. Thankfully technology has improved. We removed what we could and climbed clean.

... This statement epitomises the ideal we should be aiming at, not only for Ben Lomond but also for Australian climbing in general.

I remove tatt when I find it as it's fairly easy to do, and on the few instances that I have ever left it, hope that others have done the same with mine.

I'd sooner go ground up as that method of approach for the cliff also has its own adventure, and then walk off after the climb, rather than lug a long static up there.

Vwills
8-Oct-2017
5:05:52 PM
Seeing as I seem to be quoted, my 2 cents worth is
- generally I think if enough people are climbing at the Ben to cause erosion issues in the descent gully then an abseil station is warranted as the lesser of 2 evils.
Along the same line, If by some miracle recreational climbing was permitted on Balls pyramid again sometime in the future, then there would be a good argument for an abseil descent to stop people leaving tat and to keep them away from areas of know phasmid habitat.

However there would need to be ongoing vigilance at he Ben as slippery slopes do exist ( as demonstrated clearly at the Governor at Kaputar over the last few years ) , so if the default is no bolts and people have to walk down, then so be it. The idea of a chain seems like an illogical compromise and no better than bolts
Wendy
9-Oct-2017
4:49:40 AM
On 6-Oct-2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>>
>I've been following this thread with interest.
>I support Gerry inasmuch as I like the idea he is putting forward and
>the reasons for it, implied or otherwise!
>
>I suspect that you are having a bet both ways Wendy including a little
>fear mongering as slippery slopes are real(!), and uwhp510 has called you
>out on it.
>
I didn't see any argument proving that slippery slopes were inevitable? We live on slippery slopes all the time. People use them as arguments about all sorts of dodgy things. Immigration. Racism. Homophobia. Varying "dangerous" activities. The point is that we stop slippery slopes all the times. When someone dies climbing, we don't say "we must all stop climbing before we all end up dying climbing". Some men commit violence against women. A disturbingly large number in fact. But are we going to remove all men for the safety of women? People drown. Should we drain the ocean to prevent people drowning? We set boundaries and reinforce boundaries. They don't have to involve extremes. Extremes are the rhelm of "Muslim set off a bomb. Make all Muslims leave Australia for our safety". They are fear mongering. Reasonable adults can separate between the circumstancest of a particular event and different circumstances.

>As for your Balls Pyramid example, all that I read in VL was; (to quote
>Vanessa);
>
On our climb the relics of previous climbers were apparent,
>with rusting
>bolts, friable manila rope reclaimed by vegetation, and the odd disintegrating
>piton and even a wooden peg. Thankfully technology has improved. We removed
>what we could and climbed clean.

>... This statement epitomises the ideal we should be aiming at, not only
>for Ben Lomond but also for Australian climbing in general.

That's exactly what I was referring to and it was my example that "traditionally" climbers were not all clean and perfect as Gerry tried to claim they were. There is no shortage of relics of "traditional" climbing around Australia, such as tat, weird old bolts, pitons are various sorts, wooden chocks, metal tubes, chips. I agree that it's all rubbish and removing it is great, I'm using it to point out that Gerry is making a claim to a fiction.
>

IdratherbeclimbingM9
9-Oct-2017
6:07:25 AM
On 9-Oct-2017 Wendy wrote:
>I didn't see any argument proving that slippery slopes were inevitable?

The most recent one* was...
>"However there would need to be ongoing vigilance at he Ben as slippery slopes do exist ( as demonstrated clearly at the Governor at Kaputar over the last few years )"

There are quite a few of us who have been around long enough to have seen the bolts progression within climbing including proliferation; and although "Reasonable adults can separate between the circumstancest of a particular event and different circumstances." the (perhaps inevitable?) problem with slippery slopes is that they are slippery over time.
Changing of mindsets with generations, particularly those without the benefit of hindsight, add slipperyness to the slopes(!), and this thread has already demonstrated examples of that.

It isn't a Ben Lomond problem, it's a mindset problem, and I'd like to think that collectively we as climbers can aspire to a higher standard (that has its own esoteric rewards) despite any inconvenience entailed.

(*The most shocking one from earlier this year, was the thread; The Eyrie, Mt Boyce retrobolted! Badly...)

Wendy
9-Oct-2017
7:16:40 AM
On 9-Oct-2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 9-Oct-2017 Wendy wrote:
>>I didn't see any argument proving that slippery slopes were inevitable?
>
>The most recent one* was...
>>"However there would need to be ongoing vigilance at he Ben as slippery
>slopes do exist ( as demonstrated clearly at the Governor at Kaputar over
>the last few years )"


But noone has said that all bolts at kaputar have to go to prevent the slippery slope - this is where the argument gets unreasonable, when people use it to argue for the extreme. It's a lazy and illogical argument. Some bolts at kaputar were removed under consideration of those particular circumstances. See, being reasonable adults ....

IdratherbeclimbingM9
9-Oct-2017
7:23:27 AM
On 9-Oct-2017 Wendy wrote:
>But noone has said that all bolts at kaputar have to go to prevent the
>slippery slope - this is where the argument gets unreasonable, when people
>use it to argue for the extreme. It's a lazy and illogical argument. Some
>bolts at kaputar were removed under consideration of those particular circumstances.
>See, being reasonable adults ....
>
Ok, I'll suggest it now then, ... Mt Kaputar might also be better off as a NSW equivalent of Ben Lomond!
Future purity within the game we play obviously has a price to pay!

I also look forward to the day that Mt Arapiles joins the list of bolt free cliffs in Australia...
Heh, heh, heh.
simone
9-Oct-2017
7:55:28 AM
On 28-Sep-2017 Stugang wrote:
>It's a hat not a helmet.
>
>So unless it is NASA approved Kevlar it's probably little value other
>than containing the spread of mashed brain.

Sorry, you are right now that I see it on a desktop rather than a phone screen.
Sadly he would fit right in at many Blueys crags.
Did you shoot the footage yourself? If so, did you say anything about safety to him?
Karl Bromelow
9-Oct-2017
10:51:52 AM
>I also look forward to the day that Mt Arapiles joins the list of bolt
>free cliffs in Australia...
>Heh, heh, heh.

It is clear that different people have different perspectives regarding what constitutes an active slippery slope. Anybody who has ever placed a bolt on rock protectable otherwise (even if placed for lower off purposes) will have a different view of the bolt and chain slippery slope from those who have not or are opposed to doing so. Their view may differ from cliff to cliff but they will feel differently about the gradient of that slope and the point at which it bottoms out or becomes uncomfortably significant. For me Arapiles' slippery slope hit rock bottom when a bolt was placed on Watchtower Crack. I don't know if it is still there because I haven't been on it in years but something is most definitely, lost for me, when fixed hardware proliferates. That is undeniable. That is my perspective. Others clearly hold a different view but, having watched the arguments continue, internationally, for nearly 30 years, and also witnessed the slow (low angled slope) progression of acceptance of bolted anchors (for various reasons) and a sport mentality, from my perspective the slope is demonstrably genuine. I don't however proclaim to be the arbiter of all that is righteous in rock climbing. My own opinion would be don't bolt Ben Lomond.

And for what it's worth, comparing this with the same sex marriage argument is simply ridiculous and a little bit provocative, and about that I am most definitely right, aren't I?

Cheers, Karl

ajfclark
9-Oct-2017
11:00:52 AM
On 9-Oct-2017 Karl Bromelow wrote:
>For me Arapiles' slippery slope hit rock bottom when a bolt was placed on Watchtower Crack.

Which bolt?

I believe there's currently:

2 rusted carrots on the 3rd pitch
3 pitons at the next belay
1 modern stainless bolt with fixed hanger on the 4th pitch which replaced a rusted carrot

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There are 88 messages in this topic.

 

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