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Uber classic oz offwidths

PThomson

8-Jan-2017
8:55:01 PM

You missed the point I was making above, though that's because I made it too ambiguously, without delineating:

It's one thing if taping to prevent damage to your hands doesn't change the nature of the climb at all for your physiology (for example, taping on Where Angels Fear to Tread -not that I really believe there is any reason to, I didn't earn so much as a single scratch on that thing- doesn't exactly make the climb physically easier), whereas the minute doing so -even for the purpose of "protecting your hands"- DOES change the nature of the jam, now it's having a greater unbalanced effect (that is to say, one which is NOT universal across all physiologies) than wearing shoes or using chalk (I see kneebar pads as a middle-ground of dubiousness between the notions of chalk/shoes and tape/jammies... not that I've ever used one). And doing it selectively to make a climb easier (which I've see numerous examples of) is a whole other ballpark of dubious ethics.

Whether or not that FACT bothers you is an entirely personal thing. A lot of it ultimately has to do with what you perceive as success at a climb, and your reasons for climbing. Unless you're a sponsored climber using these unbalanced artificial elements and riding on the success of hard sends, the reality is any ascent that those of us on chockstone achieve is likely to be forgotten 11 seconds after we achieve it (and anything I do is forgotten 6 seconds after I achieve).

But in reality, if one expands their fists to make it possible to fist-jam up the offwidth of Transcendental Meditation (a natural element of physiology which only a relative small volume of people will have... the same people who will be leveled out by climbs that feature tight hands, in "the great leveling" aspect of physiology that IS climbing), and then wants to THINK that THEY'VE succeeded as the climb qua "the climb"... they're fooling themselves.

I get that I'm in the gross minority here. Most people think that my approach to solving these climbs solely based on my physiology is an ethic which is irrelevant now based on the "accepted standard" (regarding taping) -in fact, Neil Monteith was busy telling me exactly that a few hours ago... But the Spirit of the climb, the challenge it presents, or -as in this case-, the slaughtering that I copped on it, is something for me to physically overcome with my own physiology, as a natural challenge, rather than an enhanced one. The reason I can accept shoes and chalk is -as I said before- the "artificial" element that they add is one that is ALMOST entirely equal across all levels of the field (tall, short, strong, weak, technical, burly... whatever), whereas taping isn't the same experience across the board based on physiology.

Wendy

9-Jan-2017
8:01:09 AM

I think maybe you credit a simple layer of tape with too much! For example, all the classic 5.10s at Indian Creek are cupped hands for me. In order to make them perfect hands, I would need to wear at least 2 pairs of handjammies, which are much much thicker than tape. One of the reasons I can't stand any type of commercial glove is they really change the size of your hand and the feel of your jams. This is not for any ethical objection - I have spent a lot of years climbing with these hands and I know what their dimensions are, how to place them, what certain jams feel like and what that means for their chances of holding. Tape doesn't effect that - I can jam perfectly well with or without tape, I don't notice any difference in the dimensions of my hands. It is just nicer on my skin if I tape. Commercial gloves really change both dimensions and feel.

Shoes really change the feel of rock as well. You could easily argue that shoes and chalk change the nature of holds. Someone in tight edging shoes is likely to find thin vertical faces easier than someone in loose slippers. Heel hooks in slippers feel different to heel hooks in lace ups. Slopers with chalk feel different to slopers without. Whether to use gloves, chalk or what type of shoes are decisions individual climbers make all the time that make climbs different experiences and potential feel like different grades. A whole bunch of early hard climbs at Araps were first done in EBs, Fires or some other early boot. The even earlier stuff was done in various sorts of walking boots. Surely all of these climbs feel easier these days with sticky rubber and modern shoes? Are we all aiding them? Or should we just down grade them?

I get the problem you have with purposefully manufacturing tape or gloves to fit a crack. It rapidly gets silly. But general use of tape confers less of an advantage on climbing that shoes or chalk. And I'm not sure if it constitutes anymore of a form of aid than specifically choosing shoes to a particular route. What about taping to reinforce your tendons or cover flappers?Choosing liquid chalk to save you chalking up on route? Does finding a fine line somewhere rapidly get ridiculous?

Incidentally, Douglas normally wears tape gloves for crack climbing, but he couldn't get his hands into Child in Time with them on, so he took them off. Was that an aid ascent? I did Kryptonite Crack with a slipper on one foot and lace up on the other because I couldn't get the lace up into the crack and couldn't heel hook with the slipper. Was I aiding? Would I have not been aiding if I had just taped the slipper to my foot to stop it coming off on the heel hook instead of wearing the lace up? Was Nyree Dodd aiding when she took her shoes off to climb the roof on Passport?

Nathan Hoette famously said using knee bars was aid and claimed the first knee bar free ascents of various routes! Knee pads make a world of difference to knee barring - mostly in pain reduction and skin protection, but a rubber pad adds fiction and either add significantly more in dimension to your leg than a layer of tape. Mind you, this can work both ways - some just won't work with a pad, particularly the chunky commercial ones with can be very thick and rigid. I tend to stick with plain old neoprene cut from an old wetsuit for greatest versatility with reasonable protection.

If you want to climb purely based your physiology, I am looking forward the the trip reports of your naked, shoeless, chalkless sends!


E. Wells

9-Jan-2017
8:33:45 AM

I believe offwidth roof at the noisy place still hasnt been freed if you want a challenge and can climb gr 35?

technogeekery

9-Jan-2017
1:35:00 PM

On 9/01/2017 Wendy wrote:
>It rapidly gets silly.

Hah - yes - if you can persuade yourself that tape/gloves are more aid than shoes, I too would be interested to see you climbing barefoot (but will leave Wendy to audit your naked climbs)

PThomson

9-Jan-2017
5:01:11 PM

Wendy and Technogeekery - Maybe I need to write a Puffin Book version of what I said above, as I feel like neither of you have actually understood my justification of my aforementioned notion (even if you disagree with it), based on your response which ignores all except for about 1/4 of my point by interpreting it as "tape gloves are cheating, and so is wearing clothes".

Either that, or you've jumped straight into the classic "Argument ad absurdum" response, which really isn't a counter-argument at all.

EDIT: But I can't be bothered repeating it for -literally- a third post... AND, I guess, in reality, this isn't the medium where a debate like this can achieve anything worthwhile (assuming there is anything worthwhile in arguing such an arbitrary topic), so I'll just drop it and say laissez faire, and let's go about our business. =P

-Paul T

widewetandslippery

9-Jan-2017
5:20:01 PM

The Original Route on Masters Mountain is, not the hardest at gr17 but it is 350m+ long and only a couple of pitches do not involve OW. It is a real 17 though

PThomson

9-Jan-2017
5:26:26 PM

Masters Mountain in The Wolgan?

technogeekery

10-Jan-2017
12:45:34 PM

On 9/01/2017 PThomson wrote:
>... I'll just drop it and say laissez faire, and let's go about our business. =P
>

Probably the best strategy given that opinion :P but if you do write the Puffin Book of Climbing Ethics, let me know, I like your writing :-)

widewetandslippery

10-Jan-2017
1:00:19 PM

Yes, Wolgan. Awesome route

robbio

12-Jan-2017
10:58:45 PM

On 8/01/2017 Wendy wrote:

Hell, I can find a few people who will still
tell you that chalk is aid.

Of course chalk is aid, that goes without saying ;)


Superstu

13-Jan-2017
8:43:26 AM

pthomson you are missing wendys contrary that you claim to climb to your physical constraints but then you stick giant rubber cheating booties on!

PThomson

13-Jan-2017
9:42:04 AM

Superstu - I've addressed exactly your comment twice previously. So far, no one has written a response which addresses my justification, nor -for that matter- presents a contrary viewpoint to my position (all I'm seeing are tangentially related comments/statements, none of which present any sort of counter-point).

I addressed why using tape or hand jammies ( and subsequently changing hand size) is more of an unbalanced artificial aid (with respect to difficulty) than using chalk or climbing shoes.

I also addressed why using chalk or climbing shoes is less of a detriment (in fact, a relatively minor one) to the physiological challenge of a crack climb, as opposed to using hand jammies or tape. The key word there is physiological as opposed to physical or masochistic.

- Paul T

PThomson

13-Jan-2017
10:06:33 AM

robbio - Some crazy people think that. hehe.

If you do a few more days of climbing this year, you can cast aside your "No-day Rob" and "Daddy Rob" nicknames, and earn back the coveted "No-Chalk" one. =)

- Paul T

dalai

13-Jan-2017
10:21:18 AM

Can't believe you people are quibbling about what makes a pure ascent. Climbing as an activity is inherently contrived unless soloing nude.

Every addition is an aid to the climber and starts to murky the waters.

PThomson

13-Jan-2017
10:28:14 AM

dalai - Fair enough =P

I enjoy discussing/debating/arguing, and can over-invest myself sometimes in something that isn't even really that big a deal with me.

The downside to text-based debating (aside from it not taking place in real time) is that it doesn't convey emotion. I suspect I probably come across as being fired-up, frustrated or passionate about this, whereas in reality I feel like I'm trying to apathetically explain a point (maybe with a degree of exasperation).

...

I also totally killed this post about offwidths by taking it off-topic. Sorry about that.

- Paul T


rodw

13-Jan-2017
10:37:23 AM

On 13/01/2017 PThomson wrote:

>I also totally killed this post about offwidths by taking it off-topic.
>Sorry about that.

Wouldn't be Chockstone if that didn't happen.

dalai

13-Jan-2017
10:42:16 AM

On 13/01/2017 rodw wrote:
>On 13/01/2017 PThomson wrote:
>
>>I also totally killed this post about offwidths by taking it off-topic.
>>Sorry about that.
>
>Wouldn't be Chockstone if that didn't happen.

What was the topic again? ;-)

Wendy

13-Jan-2017
12:32:52 PM

On 13/01/2017 PThomson wrote:
>Superstu - I've addressed exactly your comment twice previously.
>So far, no one has written a response which addresses my justification,
>nor -for that matter- presents a contrary viewpoint to my position (all
>I'm seeing are tangentially related comments/statements, none of which
>present any sort of counter-point).
>
>I addressed why using tape or hand jammies ( and subsequently changing
>hand size) is more of an unbalanced artificial aid (with respect to difficulty)
>than using chalk or climbing shoes.

I get the message that you think that tape changes basic physical features effecting climbing more than chalk. I just don't happen to agree with it! I'll try another example. I have tiny feet. People assure me this is a great adantage on small foot holds. You might say this advantage is a counter balance to my being a foot shorter than these owners of flippers and it all works out in the end. However, these big feet can be put in shoes specifically designed to make standing on small holds easier. I could put my little feet into them as well, but the relative benefit would be much less than for the person with big feet.

Or we could take alfclark or ODH of the sweating extravaganzas. I have way less sweaty hands, but they address their outrageous sweatiness with liquid chalk and the like. The relative advantage of the liquid chalk (even chalk full stop) benefits the over sweaty more than the less sweaty. They aren't balancing out other physical difference such as these guys towering over me such as you suggest hand size is a balancing feature until we add gloves.

>I also addressed why using chalk or climbing shoes is less of a detriment
>(in fact, a relatively minor one) to the physiological challenge of a crack
>climb, as opposed to using hand jammies or tape. The key word there
>is physiological as opposed to physical or masochistic.

Physiological: relating to the way in which a living organism or bodily part functions

I think shoes and chalk change the way a body part functions too ...

I started climbing those classic indian creek 5.10 fat hand/fist for me cracks in my access shoes before because it hurt less (and also fit better) than my climbing shoes. Not too many people would accuse one of making a climb easier by not wearing climbing shoes.

The main benefit aside from protection in wearing tape gloves is not actually changing one's hand size (which they do very minimally) - it's in the addition of friction. Much in the same way as shoes. Tape might not be rubber, but it is much better than a sweaty hand in a glassy crack.

on the one occasion I can remember trying to tape my fingers into a fat finger slot size, it failed abysmally anyway because you can't feel what the lock is doing, the tape move and it become a pain in the ass for all the other finger slots on the route. I rapidly returned to the single layer of tape purely to protect my skin.


Superstu

13-Jan-2017
1:22:51 PM

is it an urban myth or did Fred Fromm really climb angels in bare feet?

if so, then one could argue it was the first and only true free ascent and all others have been aid ascents by rubber cladded pansies (compensating for their physiological deficiencies)

mikllaw

13-Jan-2017
1:34:36 PM

On 13/01/2017 Superstu wrote:
>is it an urban myth or did Fred Fromm really climb angels in bare feet?

Yes "Fred from the bush" did Angels and many other climbs in bare feet

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