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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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9:47:09 AM |
Wow, Andrew, that is a masterful piece of devil's advocacy! I suggest you go out and retro Tip Toe Ridge straight away. Actually, I agree that climbing of all sorts impacts on the rock in many ways and people aren't very good at acknowledging that. Gear scars, polish, chalk, rubber marks, cleaning of routes or the prevention of reestablishment of moss and vegetation on them, not to mention the on ground impacts. Or that stuff about rubbish and shit that I have carried on about before. Trad climbing is not the leave no trace ideal it likes to think it is. |
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10:41:01 AM |
I've certainly never considered, or proposed, that trad climbing 'leaves no trace' ... But it certainly is about 'place your own and leave no gear' ... If you want to be pedantic the only way to really 'leave no trace' is to actually not even go ... Also regarding rock wear and damage, that also happens quite naturally due to weather and is how cliffs are formed. They do not naturally have bits of metal glued in them! |
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1:32:22 PM |
On 18/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >If you want to be pedantic the only way to really 'leave no trace' is >to actually not even go ... Which is why I think the 'leave no trace' 'ethic' is a total crock. It sounds nice, but requires some mental gymnastics to overlook all the ways that even a contentious climber, or hiker, or murderer does in fact leave a trace. Or, as you say, you just don't go. |
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2:52:56 PM |
Of course the "have no impact" is impossible, but that then does no mean "maximize your impact" is warranted | |||||
3:52:43 PM |
On 18/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >They do not naturally have >bits of metal glued in them! But aren't we just returning iron ore to its natural state back in the ground? ;-) |
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3:55:23 PM |
On 9/05/2016 Duang Daunk wrote: >On 9/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >>the (Maccas new Blueies test piece) route should not be retrobolted because >it's been >>retro-tradded... It's now a classic test piece! >>You's sure do things different down there ... > >Macca bro, is age wearying or confusing you? >Since when has original ascent style stopped retro's? What makes you think >a better than original ascent style makes any difference? > >In memory of that Nati classic-named climb, One Bed to the Left, are you >going to retro-name your new test piece One Climbing Range to the North, >as all the retro-talk sounds rather incestuous, and some-one with a small >ethic / big ego need, will come along one day... So if someone Solo's the route, do they get to re-claim Macca's FA ? |
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5:26:05 PM |
On 18/05/2016 phillipivan wrote: >On 18/05/2016 Macciza wrote: > >>If you want to be pedantic the only way to really 'leave no trace' is >>to actually not even go ... > >Which is why I think the 'leave no trace' 'ethic' is a total crock. It >sounds nice, but requires some mental gymnastics to overlook all the ways >that even a contentious climber, or hiker, or murderer does in fact leave >a trace. Or, as you say, you just don't go. Juan Enriquez suggests we should section off 1/3 of the Earth to no-human interaction.. |
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6:42:10 PM |
On 18/05/2016 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote: >Of course the "have no impact" is impossible, but that then does no mean >"maximize your impact" is warranted Did I advocate a nuclear holocaust? I'd watch that movie however: skynet meets front range freaks. At any rate I'm all for impact minimisation / mitigation, but describing it as a 'leave no trace' ethic is moronic. |
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6:45:16 PM |
On 18/05/2016 phillipivan wrote: >At any rate I'm all for impact minimisation / >mitigation, but describing it as a 'leave no trace' ethic is moronic. I'll agree with you there. But I'll give a list of names for the "go dig a hole with your bare hands, then lie in it and die" option. It will be a relatively short list |
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7:31:16 PM |
What gets me is the hypocrisy of these warriors supposedly saving the planet from the ravages of the plague of little holes, scratches and bits of metal in rock. At the same time the extraordinary lengths these warriors would go to, to for example rescue a feral goat that is causing untold damage to the arid environment of a crag like moonarie when they should have smashed its frikken skull in and enjoyed it, makes them hypocrites par excellence. One billy goat with a smashed skull has the approximate environmental equivalence of 1000 chopped sport routes - yet you YES YOU wescue billy and prattle on about the vandalism the odd bolt does. Pfffttt. |
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8:31:49 PM |
I'll put the goat on the short list | |||||
8:35:07 PM |
IMHO it would be better put on the bbq. | |||||
9:02:08 PM |
On 18/05/2016 nmonteith wrote: >But aren't we just returning iron ore to its natural state back in the ground? ;-) Well apart from the fact that stainless steel and epoxy resin are not actually iron ore, yeah you might be able to justify it that way... And then throwing glass away on a beach is fine because it's silica, building stuff comes from nature so why shouldnt the waste go back there? And oil comes out of the ground so I guess you can pour it down the drain or just chuck it anywhe on the ground and let it soak back in. And lots of plastic comes from oil so yeah just chuck it on the ground too. Great logic you've got there ... |
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9:20:07 PM |
DD - No it's not but I reckon you must be suffering a bit ... What the bloody hell were all thos people doing freeing aids from climbs back in the day for? If not to make a difference by climbing the route in better style. Shit I reckon a lot of pitons will need to be replaced and lots of people will have to brush up on on their aiding so we can go back to the original style of ascent... How has everyone got so wrong for all these years? Of course climbing it in a better style makes a bloody difference and freeing the need for bolts to aid your climbing of a mixed route is a valid reason for it to be a trad climb; it's part and parcel of the whole progression of climbing. Well at least it was till the advent of pleasure climbing.... No not retro-naming it at all, just modernising the style of ascent .... Oh and original ascent style should be the basis for avoiding retros, ie if it is a trad route or trad project you certainly shouldn't be going and sticking ring bolts in it! BB - Not at all but they can claim first Solo ascent. I'm just claiming the first fully free ascent of a mixed route.... |
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9:58:35 PM |
Stu - what gets me is the hypocrisy of all those 'outdoor' climbers who expect it to simply mirror or create it to imitate the indoor experience ... | |||||
10:13:34 PM |
On 18/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >Stu - what gets me is the hypocrisy of all those 'outdoor' climbers who >expect it to simply mirror or create it to imitate the indoor experience >... its not you its him. In any case macca I suspect we have more alignment than not on the issue I just think rock damage is a dumb way of arguing the point. Especially when one day some hero comes along and tries to save some random feral goat when they should be smashing it. |
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10:40:15 PM |
Yeah Asti, I reckon we do. I'm with you on the goat thing, even as a pacifist vegetarian. There's been an escaped goat up here at York that needs to be dealt with too. It seems calling council Rangers and the owner being informed just ain't enough though and it's still running free I think. Would probably make great kebabs though ... And yeah the rock damage isn't really the issue in my case, it's the ethics for me- it simply no longer needs the bolts. And if a 50+ old dude can do it in better style then some gun climbers did back in the day, then surely some younguns might be inspired to at least match, if not better my ascent... |
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8:54:40 AM |
On 18/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >On 18/05/2016 nmonteith wrote: > >>But aren't we just returning iron ore to its natural state back in the >ground? ;-) > >Well apart from the fact that stainless steel and epoxy resin are not >actually iron ore, yeah you might be able to justify it that way... And >then throwing glass away on a beach is fine because it's silica, building stuff comes from nature so why shouldnt the waste go back there? And oil >comes out of the ground so I guess you can pour it down the drain or just chuck it anywhe on the ground and let it soak back in. And lots of plastic >comes from oil so yeah just chuck it on the ground too. Great logic you've got there ... > What do people usually do with chopped bolts? |
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9:52:26 AM |
On 19/05/2016 martym wrote: >What do people usually do with chopped bolts? Not sure what others do though I've heard of one person who keeps them like pet rocks and another who has a 'trophies of war' style necklace that he only wears on special occasions ... Me? I melt them down and reforge them as pitons .... |
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10:29:10 AM |
On 19/05/2016 Macciza wrote: > >Me? I melt them down and reforge them as pitons .... Really?? |
| There are 140 messages in this topic. |
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