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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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3:25:27 PM |
On 9/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >the (Maccas new Blueies test piece) route should not be retrobolted because it's been >retro-tradded... It's now a classic test piece! >You's sure do things different down there ... Macca bro, is age wearying or confusing you? Since when has original ascent style stopped retro's? What makes you think a better than original ascent style makes any difference? In memory of that Nati classic-named climb, One Bed to the Left, are you going to retro-name your new test piece One Climbing Range to the North, as all the retro-talk sounds rather incestuous, and some-one with a small ethic / big ego need, will come along one day... |
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5:57:26 PM |
Climb it like you cho/i/pped it. | |||||
7:19:08 PM |
On 9/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >Managed to 'fudge' (whatever that actually means) gear in on abseil.... Pretty sure "fudging gear on abseil) means you are effectively sport (spurt??) climbing... If your going to abseil down a route, figure out which piece of gear goes where, do the route a whole bunch on top rope and then go for the send having racked all the trad pieces in order on your harness, knowing exactly where they go etc... ya might as well be sport climbing. |
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10:38:09 PM |
Yeah Simey I have gone ground up on a number of occasions, unfortunately this couldn't be one of them for various reasons ... In the end it was due to rapping it that the idea of climbing it on gear became at all feasible. Suggesting from the ground to green point the route with no idea of the terrain at all would seem crazy, and if you headed up with a standard Blueies rack you'd be stuffed. If it were a grade or two below my limit I may have approached it differently, or if there were more inspiring gear easily visible, or higher on the route, or less danger etc. then yeah it might have been different. But instead I cheated a bit, because I didn't want to risk hurting myself whilst sorting it out, and so the same as a sport climber at their limit might clip a dogging bolt to work the crux I did the same thing only the best gear available for me was att the anchors. In the end I lead it first shot of the day placing the gear on lead and facing whatever the consequences may have been should I have fallen, Yes I had convinced myself the small gear available in the top half would hold a fall, but I also knew that the good small gear in the middle was probably too low .... Yes I knew the moves but also knew I could fall off in a number of spots, and that just because you've done it twice in a row on toprope practice placing gear doesn't mean the third will be successful.... The style that was improved upon is that a mixed climb is now a pure trad route, rather then it ended up as a sanitised sport route through retro bolting. The artificial aids needed in 1984 are redundant and I note in the route description after mentioning my preinspection and rehearsal it is now available to others to improve on that style. When I first approached it I did not know that it went on gear but now future ascentionists can approach it armed with that knowledge and go ground up ... When are you up next? Obviously I expect that you will be prepared to have a ground up hack at it, after all if you're really going to make a statement you should be prepared to back it up. There's even some which I have no idea of and don't know if they'll go on gear that you can try ground up as well... |
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11:34:15 PM |
Well tim, I reckon if that 'fudged' gear is absolutely bomber, close enough to be safe and left pre-placed, then yeah you are effectively sport climbing ... If you abseil down a route, discover you can get brass micro nuts in the top half of the climb, above some pretty decent gear at 'maybe' halfway, some micro-cams meant for 'direct aid only' at the crux, and with the first gear at 5m and one other small piece in to protect you from either a nasty impact on a fin of rock or the ground; then even after you've head pointed it a few times to discover that you can fall off it, slightly less often as you can do it, whilst imagining that you are on the sharp end; and then racking up the meagre assortment of gear that you will be using, half as much as the sport route down the cliff, maybe putting them in some sort of order as if it is going to somehow magically help you place it better or not fall off; with a pretty good idea of where they might go, even the somewhat crucial several kN sideways 4 RP placement manages to disappear before your very eyes in the haze of the send .... And then you get on it for the send, manage to get the crux gear in, which is much harder to place on lead, hesitate then commit through the crux to battle flash pump fear, rising anxiety and doubt, without the usual various safety nets; you might wish you were sport climber but the reality is that you aren't |
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12:06:16 AM |
Macca, mate, we're talking about shit routes on good rock here. Can you please not 'wall of text' us with spray about your shit routes on shit rock? I predict this thread will cop a Shai Haludding in t-12hrs and counting. |
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10:23:18 AM |
Sorry thought I was on StoneChock, they appreciate reasoned arguments there . . . Just treat earlier comments like a retro bolt on a trad route - you don't have to read them ... So now the TLDR version... Simey- put up or shut up! I've got some unknown routes you can go ground up on too! Tim- yeah right, it's a sport route, no-brainer, safe as ... Go for the onsight, mate! ODH- it's actually a good route on good rock! And you should go try SH, you'll be surprised . . . |
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11:51:11 AM |
On 9/05/2016 timfreddo wrote: >If your going to abseil down a route, figure out which piece of gear goes >where, do the route a whole bunch on top rope and then go for the send >having racked all the trad pieces in order on your harness, knowing exactly >where they go etc... ya might as well be sport climbing. > Or headpointing perhaps. |
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12:09:29 PM |
On 10/05/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >Macca, mate, we're talking about shit routes on good rock here. Can you >please not 'wall of text' us with spray about your shit routes on shit >rock? > >I predict this thread will cop a Shai Haludding in t-12hrs and counting. On 10/05/2016 Macciza wrote: > >you'll be surprised . . . 10:17, good try from Macca, but we all know what the initials mean |
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12:27:43 PM |
Ah ... headpointing ... the ultimate in flawed climbing styles, outside of the UK, or a select few crags elsewhere, it is all about ego rather than any particular other requirement (see above posts as undeniable evidence). Wendy, you may as well slap those bolts back in as that confused pom seems to be lost and mistaking the climbing style at Araps with what occurs in the homeland. Glenn gave permission, so go for it. |
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6:10:40 PM |
On 9/05/2016 Macciza wrote: > >If you abseil down a route, discover you can get brass micro nuts in the >top half of the climb, above some pretty decent gear at 'maybe' halfway, >some micro-cams meant for 'direct aid only' at the crux, and with the first >gear at 5m and one other small piece in to protect you from either a nasty >impact on a fin of rock or the ground; then even after you've head pointed >it a few times to discover that you can fall off it, slightly less often >as you can do it, whilst imagining that you are on the sharp end; and then >racking up the meagre assortment of gear that you will be using, half as >much as the sport route down the cliff, maybe putting them in some sort >of order as if it is going to somehow magically help you place it better >or not fall off; with a pretty good idea of where they might go, even the >somewhat crucial several kN sideways 4 RP placement manages to disappear >before your very eyes in the haze of the send .... Yawn.... Put some bolts in it so it gets more ascents... You don't have to clip them... |
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6:35:33 PM |
Yawn, more ascents doth butter no parsnips ... I'd rather it had less ascents, but by a better class of climber ... It's got some bolts that you don't need to clip, it certainly doesn't need any more... And if it's all so easy and 'sport climbing'ish then come on - step up or shut up - just don't clip up ... |
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9:27:33 PM |
Impressive send Macca- brassies in those seams is scary!! | |||||
10:22:47 PM |
Thanks for the detailed reply Macciza and good to hear your perspectives. But given the details you have provided about your recent ascent, I still get the impression that the route you described should retain at least a few bolts given that the protection sounds like shit and totally unappealing for a ground-up ascent. Maybe there are other factors to justify why the climb might be better not having bolts in it (ease of top-roping it, history of the route/cliff, how it affects neighbouring routes, visual aesthetics) but unless it is a famous mega-classic up an outstanding line which has beckoned climbers for many a year, it is hard to see that people will want to go to the bother of climbing it in the style that you have described. |
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10:33:05 PM |
I think the whole approach of route by route "fixing" is outdated and unworkable for Araps. What I would like to see is a discussion between all the ethical factions in Nati with a view to establishing a long term "whole cliff view" as to how the place is going to look in the future. I know it's your local area and after-work lap training facility, but it is also Australia's premier crag and a special place for climbers from all around the world. You guys have the keys to paradise, but with that comes the responsibility to not trash the joint. Please, The Mount is not being improved by all the stupid bolted variants, linkups, squeeze routes, contrived sport lines, and "popularizing" of crap routes via the marvel of retrobolting. |
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7:16:58 AM |
The usual Victorian ethic is that easy routes should be death and hard routes gain bolts without comment. Maybe everything over 21 should be returned to its original state? I'm happy to see a few bolts on easy routes though. | |||||
8:48:20 AM |
On 10/05/2016 One Day Hero wrote: >I think the whole approach of route by route "fixing" is outdated and unworkable >for Araps. What I would like to see is a discussion between all the ethical >factions in Nati with a view to establishing a long term "whole cliff view" >as to how the place is going to look in the future. I actually think that route by route "fixing" does work. If someone oversteps the mark, then there is the chance to say so and remove the bolts. Every climb at Arapiles has a different set of considerations with regard what is reasonable/unreasonable with potential bolting. A "whole cliff view" doesn't allow for the myriad of climbs and climbing styles that take place at Arapiles. >I know it's your local area and after-work lap training facility, but >it is also Australia's premier crag and a special place for climbers from >all around the world. You guys have the keys to paradise, but with that >comes the responsibility to not trash the joint. >Please, The Mount is not being improved by all the stupid bolted variants, >linkups, squeeze routes, contrived sport lines, and "popularizing" of crap >routes via the marvel of retrobolting. I totally agree with you on this. My pet hate are new routes of very average quality that require a disproportionate number of bolts. Not every piece of rock needs to be climbed nor have a line of bolts up it. |
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10:09:10 AM |
On 10/05/2016 Macciza wrote: >Yawn, more ascents doth butter no parsnips ... >I'd rather it had less ascents, but by a better class of climber ... >It's got some bolts that you don't need to clip, it certainly doesn't >need any more... > >And if it's all so easy and 'sport climbing'ish then come on - step up >or shut up - just don't clip up ... > There is no class in spraying about a new dodgy headpoint. Describing a climber as being of a better class just because they climb a sketchfest is quite yawn inducing, particularly considering some of the folks who could do it are regular a-holes in real life. I saw a climber with real class the other day. Still climbs very hard, has put up some of the most sought after routes in the country over a long time and is still having fun. Some climbers rapped off the Bluffs at Araps. he asked them what they had just done. they sheepishly replied 'Blockbuster'. He enthusiastically congratulated them and excitedly gave them his memories of when he did the route the first time. That is a better class of climber. |
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10:10:17 AM |
On 11/05/2016 mikllaw wrote: >The usual Victorian ethic is that easy routes should be death and hard >routes gain bolts without comment. Nailed it in one. |
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10:11:35 AM |
Am with Simey on the approach at Araps. A sensible approach taking into account a myriad of factors. |
| There are 140 messages in this topic. |
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