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Fully sick bolt wars at Araps


Macciza

16-May-2016
10:03:06 AM

No disrespect (to you at least) but who gives a Fuchs about 'consensus'!
Allowing wet-behind-the-ears gym-bred noobs with a lead-pass to have any sort of say is what got us in this situation to start with ....
Once upon a time your average climber at least had a bit of clue but increasingly they simply don't ...
Most of them don't even understand simple concepts like the differences between Onsight and Flash, Redpoint and Pinkpoint, sport, Mixed or Trad etc

The only consensus needed is for them to follow the rules which were developed before they even set foot in a gym, not what they think once they eventually get to a cliff...


The good Dr

16-May-2016
1:25:11 PM

>The only consensus needed is for them to follow the rules which were developed
>before they even set foot in a gym, not what they think once they eventually
>get to a cliff...

What set of rules? There never was any and what you see as the current rules are just a figment of personal and confirmation bias. The development of climbing at Arapiles (to take it back to elements of the start of the thread) was always a mish mash of styles, inconsistent reporting of ascents, hypocrisy, visionary and tainted ascents and so much complexity. There were no rules. Same with the Blueys. etc etc.

So when do you propose that the noobs, that you are so contemptuous of, actually get a say. Do they have to climb a series of routes lain down in 'the Mac-manual' and answer a series of questions to your satisfaction, followed by a knot tying session. In some ways, the old cranks maybe should not get a say. If they had ruled the roost in days gone by, or continued to do so, climbing would have never progressed. You may not have noticed, but the level of difficulty of routes is grades harder on 'spurt' routes and this has allowed the skills of the headpointers to develop whereby harder 'headpoint' routes can be established.

BTW. Clean climbing is a self congratulatory misnomer. Some big holes have been dug in the ground so that you can have that #4RP and the biners to clip it with.

One Day Hero

16-May-2016
3:36:14 PM

On 16/05/2016 The good Dr wrote:
>What set of rules? There never was any and what you see as the current
>rules are just a figment of personal and confirmation bias. There
>were no rules. Same with the Blueys. etc etc.

Bullcrap. I agree that things weren't cut and dried, but give me some examples of flat out retrobolting or squeezing sport routes up against existing trad routes prior to the mid 2000s.

>So when do you propose that the noobs, that you are so contemptuous of,
>actually get a say.

While Macca's proposal sounds a bit far out the way he stated it, do you actually think it's a good idea to have climbers who have been in the game less than 12 months running around the crag with a drill?

>In some ways, the old cranks maybe should
>not get a say. If they had ruled the roost in days gone by, or continued
>to do so, climbing would have never progressed. You may not have noticed,
>but the level of difficulty of routes is grades harder on 'spurt' routes
>and this has allowed the skills of the headpointers to develop whereby
>harder 'headpoint' routes can be established.

Really? You're trotting out this tired old crap? I reckon that if you exclude about 10 climbers in the whole country, the rest of Australia's climbing population is not onsighting any harder on gear than they were in the 80s (which used to be one of the main measures of good climbers, right)
>
>BTW. Clean climbing is a self congratulatory misnomer. Some big holes
>have been dug in the ground so that you can have that #4RP and the biners
>to clip it with.

You're better than this, don't waste our time with unrelated nonsense. "Errrrr, global warming is happening so it's ok for me to do whatever I want at the crag"

widewetandslippery

16-May-2016
4:32:29 PM

Comparing the limited resource of araps and the blue mountains is a long stretch. The amount of rock in the mountains is massive.

Macciza, your route around softwear freaks is all well and good but its a 7-11 crag. Walk to it, stay in the tin hut and tell mum you went to mass at St Pauls saturday vigil. I failed on my one go at softwear, skill and balls. Plenty of other good rock to test the metal (or not).

Wendy

16-May-2016
4:46:14 PM

On 16/05/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 16/05/2016 The good Dr wrote:
>>What set of rules? There never was any and what you see as the current
>>rules are just a figment of personal and confirmation bias. There
>>were no rules. Same with the Blueys. etc etc.
>
>Bullcrap. I agree that things weren't cut and dried, but give me some
>examples of flat out retrobolting or squeezing sport routes up against
>existing trad routes prior to the mid 2000s.

I reckon that bolt in Trojan that you adore went in before then. Body Count had a line of bolts next to trad gear in the early 90s, Sting Like a bee not long after and Tryrants grasp and that other thing basically bolted all over CHinese water torture about the same time. I imagine there are others if I could be bothered thinking about it a bit more. YOu are living in a bit of a when I was a lad everything was much better world. And you not even as old as i am.

>
>>So when do you propose that the noobs, that you are so contemptuous of,
>>actually get a say.
>
>While Macca's proposal sounds a bit far out the way he stated it, do you
>actually think it's a good idea to have climbers who have been in the game
>less than 12 months running around the crag with a drill?
>
Even assuming noobs might make poor choices, who are these noobs supposedly running around wrecking araps with power drills then? As far as I'm aware, the main new routing, rebolting and retrobolting climbers at Araps have 25-40 years experience. Experienced climbers in a wide range of styles and settings with a long history at Araps being brought to decisions made about routes and bolt placement. Although Simey still uses a hand drill and pegs.

>>In some ways, the old cranks maybe should
>>not get a say. If they had ruled the roost in days gone by, or continued
>>to do so, climbing would have never progressed. You may not have noticed,
>>but the level of difficulty of routes is grades harder on 'spurt' routes
>>and this has allowed the skills of the headpointers to develop whereby
>>harder 'headpoint' routes can be established.
>
>Really? You're trotting out this tired old crap? I reckon that if you
>exclude about 10 climbers in the whole country, the rest of Australia's
>climbing population is not onsighting any harder on gear than they were
>in the 80s (which used to be one of the main measures of good climbers,
>right)

The majority of climbers world wide climb diddly squat on gear. Onsighting trad 18 is a great acheivement to the majority. Which gets back to my earlier discussion about crowding - relative to demand, you can easily run low of well protected easy routes at Araps. Sure, it has a lot, especially compared to most crags, because rock generally lends itself to harder routes. Even here, the most numerous grades are around 23. As you don't go out looking for routes below 18 that much and probably haven't been here on too many busy weekends, you probably haven't noticed the hoards on the easy routes. You could argue it's good to keep the crowds in a few places or that overcrowding is trashing those places and new moderate cliffs are actually good for spreading the load. Or you can totally selfishly (like me) be sick of climbing everything sub 22 with stars for the 42nd time and go out looking if there's anything else worthwhile. I did an awesome 19 at Campbells Kingdom yesterday. If anyone is sick of the usual 19s, Coeur de Lion is great and there's now a rap anchor at the top of the cliff as well.


The good Dr

16-May-2016
5:17:43 PM

>Bullcrap. I agree that things weren't cut and dried, but give me some examples of flat out retrobolting or squeezing sport routes up against existing trad routes prior to the mid 2000s.

Strombeante; Revolution Rock; Station to Station; Yesterdays Rooster; John & Betty; Straight Outa Compton ...

There are lots more, and lets not head over to the Grampians :) - except for the awesome climbing.

And I am onsighting better than in the 80s (but I was pretty crap then, only marginally less crap now).


ambyeok

17-May-2016
1:54:11 PM

Its presumptive of me but perhaps guide book or cliff care wouldnt mind stepping in to help the situation. Create a guide book addendum which has the topos marked up with blue zones which represent where discussion is required for new routing/bolting, and who and how to contact. Anything done without consultation gets chopped. Its not about creating an approval committee but about getting some discussion going on so that the wars are fought elsewhere than on the cliff with resulting damage. We are never going to all agree on what to bolt/route and where, but we should all be able to agree that you should talk/discuss before you act - anyone not willing to do that is arrogant, disrespectful and does not deserve to contribute to the cliff. This suggestion wouldnt solve anything, but it does give at least one clear rule and mandate i.e. chop anything put up without consultation.


nmonteith

17-May-2016
2:02:16 PM

Wendy

17-May-2016
2:10:50 PM

On 17/05/2016 ambyeok wrote:
>Its presumptive of me but perhaps guide book or cliff care wouldnt mind
>stepping in to help the situation. Create a guide book addendum which has
>the topos marked up with blue zones which represent where discussion is
>required for new routing/bolting, and who and how to contact. Anything
>done without consultation gets chopped. Its not about creating an approval
>committee but about getting some discussion going on so that the wars are
>fought elsewhere than on the cliff with resulting damage. We are never
>going to all agree on what to bolt/route and where, but we should all be
>able to agree that you should talk/discuss before you act - anyone not
>willing to do that is arrogant, disrespectful and does not deserve to contribute
>to the cliff. This suggestion wouldnt solve anything, but it does give
>at least one clear rule and mandate i.e. chop anything put up without consultation.

What about rebolting anything chopped without consultation? I did the consulting in this scenario before the bolts went in and they went out without any consulting and a pile of abuse thrown at me when I suggested it would be nice to just talk to people if you have a problem their actions.


Macciza

17-May-2016
2:30:43 PM

Well that kind of escalated quickly after being misunderstood ...
Ok so they're more like 'guidelines' [space inserted here to avoid somehow triggering input filter] ; kinda like Pirates
Ed suggested 'consensus will never be reached' as if 'consensus' where the holy grail of climbing ethics. I simply said it wasn't, and that we don't need the agreement, particularly from noobs. I didn't say they were running around with drills though sometimes it seems that way. Certainly they can have a say, as they do ( ie I think it needs more bolts) to which the reply is ' No this is not the gym, it's a trad crag and climbing ethics says No!
Re Clean Climbing: Check the 1972 Chouinard Catalog, you must have missed the memo and clearly totally missed the point.

Basically just 'freeing' the routes there of the artificial protection aides so they become trad routes and can't be retro ringed. Also putting up some new trad routes. Yeah maybe it's a 7-11 crag, whatever that may be but at least it's not a 9-5 pleasure crag ...

kieranl

17-May-2016
3:16:06 PM

On 17/05/2016 Wendy wrote:

>What about rebolting anything chopped without consultation? I did the
>consulting in this scenario before the bolts went in and they went out
>without any consulting and a pile of abuse thrown at me when I suggested
>it would be nice to just talk to people if you have a problem their actions.

There is a precedent for that. The rap anchor on Serpent was placed after considerable consultation and was quickly removed. When the level of consultation was pointed out the bolts promptly went back in - presumably replaced by the chopper.

post-edit : of course precedents are there to be broken as well as followed


Eduardo Slabofvic

17-May-2016
3:36:01 PM

So, in that case, if I consult with all my bolt chopping friends, and we all agree that bolts can be chopped, then those bolts can be chopped.

Then if someone else consults with all their bolting friends about putting bolts in, and they all agree, then the bolts go in.

The funny thing is though, after climbing at Araps for 32 years, no one has ever asked me about putting a bolt in or taking one out.

Jayford4321

17-May-2016
4:23:27 PM

On 17/05/2016 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>The funny thing is though, after climbing at Araps for 32 years, no one
>has ever asked me about putting a bolt in or taking one out.
That's Bcos U R eduardo.

widewetandslippery

17-May-2016
5:55:17 PM

Macciza, my point is that in the mountains there is so much rock that routes do not need retroing, adding or deleting bolts.

Araps is different case imho. It has scope for new routes but bolted routes near existing classic bolder routes affect, not effect the original route.


ChuckNorris

17-May-2016
6:06:43 PM

Excuse me while I sit down for a minute.

Ok I'm calm now......but did Wws just instigate a chocky grammar war?

widewetandslippery

17-May-2016
6:18:24 PM

I just started golden books, spot the dog took me years.


ChuckNorris

17-May-2016
6:35:50 PM

Golden books? I'm on them too!

Omg - have you bred?


Macciza

17-May-2016
9:05:37 PM

WWS, whilst you and I may be aware of those general facts I reckon many developers simply ignore them and your average climber is even less aware. Most of the crags in the mountains have been retro bolted at some point adding bolts to replace gear placements and most crags get developed without any thought to natural lines or mixed climbs.

The 'Rage This Season' debacle is what I am trying to avoid here with some pro-active contemporary clean climbing before someone else decides to pull the drill out and try to 'improve' the climbs so more people will climb them, as if that were the only measure of a climbs worth ...

widewetandslippery

17-May-2016
9:55:02 PM

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/eft/eft19.htm

I just thought this story was a good analogy to this thread.

No I haven, t bred, while the dog and i sleep together we don, t do that sort of thing being monks and all, but he does like a good bedtime story.


ajfclark

18-May-2016
9:32:50 AM

I do wonder though, on some more popular routes at Arapiles, is the odd bolt next to a gear placement the lesser of two evils?

eg. On Tip Toe Ridge, just after you cross the pinnacle and get back to the main face, there's a placement for a nut. It's an obvious placement for a nut, but it seems quite a few people have got a nut stuck in it. There's scarring all around it from people bashing away with nut tools to get the piece back out. Wouldn't a single bolt here limit the damage?

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