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Manufacturing

13-Aug-2004
1:21:32 PM

> Anyone know Otto's Route at Colorado Monument in the USA?

It's apparently "good" enough to get in the supertopo list of top 8 intro desert towers: http://www.supertopo.com/rockclimbing/route.html?r=deinotto


HEX

13-Aug-2004
1:37:37 PM

On 12/08/2004 tasch wrote:

>Whatever *rolls eyes*

Thats funny !!!

Dicko , on Aus' Idol , once said to some shiela : " You've got a lot of talent , girl--- but have you got the balls to keep going ? --- I think you have. "

Thanks for being a good sport/sort Tasch

Luv HEX


IdratherbeclimbingM9

13-Aug-2004
1:46:47 PM

On 13/08/2004 nmonteith wrote:
>I was just making a point that The Nose is one of the MOST chipped routes
>in the world if you consider pin-scarring as chipping (which I do). (snip)
>Most of the new bigwall 'free' routes in Yosemite rely on pin scars for their free version. >Even the crux pitches on Ozymandias & Lord Gumtree at Mt Buffalo rely on pin scars for the free versions.

Have you considered that perhaps the difference is more than just in timeframe?, (reference drilling being accelerated pin scarring); ie the repeated aid ascents amounted to the climb 'deteriorating' with USE to the extent of producing usable fingerlocks, as compared to zzziipp with the drill ala fingerpocket.

I am coming from the perspective (analogy), that I am happy to wear out my climbing gear through usage; but it p*$$#$ me off if I 'lose' that (same) gear 1st time out ...

When chipping occurs; we all lose (integrity if nothing else).


IdratherbeclimbingM9

13-Aug-2004
4:12:14 PM

On 13/08/2004 tasch wrote:
>my girlfriend Bruce
?

13-Aug-2004
4:52:33 PM

I have found this thread quite interesting and I thought I would add my opinions.

I am not setting out to judge or criticise others only to voice my opinion.

I am completely against chipping particuarly in a national park such as the grampians.
My objections are from both an enviromental and climbing point of view.

For me a big part of climbing is using only my own skill, strength and sticky rubber shoes to get to the top of a piece of rock using only the natural features of the rock. I don’t really see the difference between drilling a pocket, series of jugs, bolting on a plastic hold or a ladder for that matter. Its not natural and the climb is a least partly designed. (For me cleaning is a bit of a grey area.)
In my experience most climbers feel that gym grades are fairly meaningless. This may be getting a bit of topic but at what point does a gym route become realistic enough to deserve a grade and conversely when does an outdoor route become so artificial that it is treated with the same contempt as a gym route? I enjoy gym climbing and would probably enjoy doing the moves on a chipped route but its not the same as climbing a real outdoor feature; at least for me. I would even go so far as to make the probably unpopular suggestion that chipped routes should have a grade which reflects this ie grade 28 A as in 28 artificial.
I also don’t agree with bringing a route down to you level, leave it for someone who can do it or if its impossible then its impossible.

For me the environmental considerations are probably more important than climbing side of the issue, particuarly in a national park. Climbers are just one of many special interest groups that use our parks. We like to think that we have a very low environmental impact but at least in some places that certainly isnt true. I understand that in some respects drilling a bolt hole is no better than drilling a small pocket but you need to draw a line somewhere and for me the line is between the two. I also understand that almost everything we do has an impact on our environment but I believe we should do everything we can to minimise this while still enjoying a full life.
Phil Neville made a point about admiring the blank walls near VD land. For me this is an important point, if a wall is unclimable it is protected at least to some extent from a line of bolts, chalk and access tracks. As another aside I would like to think that there are some areas of the grampians that are always left in their natural state.

The arguments that this has been done for a long time or many others have done it don’t sit very well with me. If someone has chipped at a time or place where/when it was widespead then I certainly wouldn’t criticise them for doing it. However I have heard the argument that “everyone was doing it” or “that’s what we have always done” to excuse many wrongs (mostly in regard to activities outside of climbing) but I believe we should look at our own actions and make up our own minds whether its right or wrong.

I understand that many significant climbers and climbs have chipped or been chipped and I don’t believe this diminishes their part in our climbing history. I do believe that we should look at our current and future actions and decide how they will affect our environment and everyone in it, not just climbers.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

13-Aug-2004
5:03:11 PM

On 13/08/2004 MatD wrote:
(snip)

And all the faeries said "Nuff, nuff, nuff"*

(*well said MatD)


HEX

13-Aug-2004
6:05:12 PM

On 13/08/2004 tasch wrote:

>YAY! Hexie loves me again!

I never stopped, babe --- how could any-one resist that sultry/dour-Stevie-Nicks-esque visage of yours ...

(Even more) Luv, HEX...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

MISERY-GUTS BUFFER ZONE...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh I like ta have a beer with Kieran
Oh I like ta have a beer with the-one-breast-fed-on-a-lemon
We drink in moderation
I'm sure one day he will make it to heaven...
We drink at the Nati-National
Where the atmos-fear is grate !
I like ta have a beer with Kieran
Cos Kieran takes the cake --- not !!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

kieranl

13-Aug-2004
10:18:54 PM

It was a bit sad to come back to this thread after a few days absence to find that the blank bit on Winged Corpse had been chipped.
There's six pages of crap in this thread with just one moment of sad openness.


Damietta

13-Aug-2004
10:43:05 PM

Kieran do you really feel that way? Does that news change the way you feel about the climb? I don't know the climb in question but I presume that it is not that obvious there are artificial holds.

kieranl

13-Aug-2004
10:52:53 PM

On 13/08/2004 Damietta wrote:
>Kieran do you really feel that way? Does that news change the way you feel
>about the climb? I don't know the climb in question but I presume that
>it is not that obvious there are artificial holds.

Strange as it may seem, I actually do feel that way.
I wouldn't know if the chipped holds are obvious because I've only seen about the time of the stick-clip ascent, before it was chipped, not since.


Damietta

13-Aug-2004
11:09:13 PM

On 13/08/2004 kieranl wrote:

>Strange as it may seem, I actually do feel that way.
>I wouldn't know if the chipped holds are obvious because I've only seen
>about the time of the stick-clip ascent, before it was chipped, not since.

Not strange at all. I would like to hear what you think of the route, if you ever go back and climb it post chippage. As I said, I don't know the route so I've got nothin.

It sounds like the decision to add holds to the 'blank section' to circumvent the stick clip was not taken lightly, regardless of whether or not it was the right thing to do - the majority of people seem to think it wasn't.

mikl law

14-Aug-2004
12:52:02 AM

Rod w >I have to disagree with you there Mr law, dont grey the issue, its wrong and no excusses....there are plenty of "natural" lines undeveloped, go and do them and leave the blank faces alone.<

What part of my note did you disagree with, that it's more complex than it seems at first, or that it's a waste of time and you should just bolt a hold on rather than chip?

While Arapiles has many modified holds, the outcomes were generally excellent. For those of you who haven't seen people do new hard routes at Araps, there's often a number of flakes which wouldn't hold a climber and get removed, how they are removed is the key. I don't see a problem with comfortising holds (knocking the crystal out of the hold on Hit the Deck with a biner meant you could try it twice in a day, smoothing the pocket on Slope'n'sleazin made it a grade or 2 harder, but you could try it without blood-shed), but London Calling was probably a mistake.

At the same time, I think that more holds should be reinforced, for reasons ranging from safety (I should fix the block on I must go down to the sea again) to aesthetics (I rarely break holds (gentle and weak), but often find repeats break things. When I spot something like that I reinforce it beforehand), particularly when the alternatives are a classic, or a one move shocker, 4 grades harder


rodw

14-Aug-2004
8:58:57 AM

Whos gonna police the exceptions, being able to over come any routes irregularities is the point of the game. Im simply stating chipping is wrong, ie adding a hole to a blank section that wasn't previously there. If you start bringing in other issues, re-enforcing, cleaning etc you can easily justify anything (the howard govt use this technique al the time) but look at simply the act by itself and its wrong...ie no grey area.

As for bolting on holds, why bother, go build a woodie or go to the gym.


HEX

14-Aug-2004
3:38:01 PM

On 14/08/2004 rodw wrote:
>Whos gonna police the exceptions, being able to over come any routes irregularities
>is the point of the game. Im simply stating chipping is wrong, ie adding
>a hole to a blank section that wasn't previously there. If you start bringing
>in other issues, re-enforcing, cleaning etc you can easily justify anything
>(the howard govt use this technique al the time) but look at simply the
>act by itself and its wrong...ie no grey area.
>
>As for bolting on holds, why bother, go build a woodie or go to the gym.

Lean on 'im, Rodw --- LEAN ON 'IM !!!

Gold [star] !!! ---- always believe in your soul !!!

Luv HEX & Spandau Ballet

chris

15-Aug-2004
4:12:03 PM

Just a quick note to say sorry to Neil and Mikl, my post a few days ago came out a bit wrong....I was actually trying to criticize Damietta, rather than you guys... have done heaps of both of your routes and loved them all!


robbo

15-Aug-2004
6:18:29 PM

Thank you matD for a proper well structured argument. That is more of what i was after.


Damietta

15-Aug-2004
7:04:31 PM

On 15/08/2004 chris wrote:
>Just a quick note to say sorry to Neil and Mikl, my post a few days ago
>came out a bit wrong....I was actually trying to criticize Damietta, rather
>than you guys... have done heaps of both of your routes and loved them
>all!

Aw F###, %$#^& yeh nice

>Thank you matD for a proper well structured argument. That is more of what i was after.

You are so talkin out of your $### ##@#$# Wobbo/wohoon


HEX

16-Aug-2004
4:04:12 PM

On 15/08/2004 robbo wrote:
>Thank you for a proper well structured argument. That is more of what
>i was after.

This ' sounds ' suspiciously baksa-esque ...

mikl law

16-Aug-2004
11:55:40 PM

I don't think you understood what I wrote initially, don't bother with chipping as it doesn't make the best routes. Chipping also breeds chipping, routes I've chipped have sprouted extra holds as time goes by. It's not a big deal all up, I'm be more concerned when people put up crap routes. That totally wastes a resource.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-Aug-2004
4:21:29 PM

Hex said (at least twice now);
>------------------------------------------------------

>------------------------------------------------------

It used to have holds (words) but now its blank?
Obviously and defiantly just took the drill and pfft ... hey presto, a new post modernistic sanitised 'read' has been created for us all to share ...

There are 239 messages in this topic.