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Grid bolting at Windjammer Pt Perp

dalai

2-Dec-2014
2:01:25 PM

On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:
>People climb for all sorts of reasons and have different risk tolerances,
>it's all good. you don't need to be scaring yourself stupid or risking
>your life to enjoy it.

You want to clip closely spaces rings, drive a few km inland. PP is a mixed crag where the ethics is bolts only where trad is unavailable and not a sport crag.

>The other point that's worth considering is that by placing bolts and
>ensuring they are up to a high standard within our own community, aren't
>we're seen to be managing the risks more comprehensively? And isn't this
>more likely contribute towards continued access to these great spots?

Land owners don't care about the quality of the bolts, just that there are bolts placed. More bolts does not equal greater access rights.


shortman

2-Dec-2014
2:23:27 PM

On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:

>The other point that's worth considering is that by placing bolts and
>ensuring they are up to a high standard within our own community, aren't
>we're seen to be managing the risks more comprehensively? And isn't this
>more likely contribute towards continued access to these great spots?

No.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

2-Dec-2014
2:26:23 PM

On 2/12/2014 dalai wrote:
>Land owners don't care about the quality of the bolts, just that there
>are bolts placed. More bolts does not equal greater access rights.

... and for some land owners/authorities bolts can even diminish access 'rights', ie when was the last time anyone read that PV or RAN were pro climbers placing bolts?
Yes as a generalisation, I know they tolerate* them, but that doesn't mean they condone them...

(*timtom's 'quote' from another thread sums it up nicely;
>That's just pure sand based intellectualism.
... on their part!)

timtom

2-Dec-2014
2:34:09 PM

The scarring of the earth has its roots in the dry gay leaf light. Sometimes god wills it, but if it is started by man he should be punished.
Don't go scarring the earth on poor assumptions.

surfziggy

2-Dec-2014
2:45:32 PM

I come in peace earthling

Time will tell about access... but I doubt that land owners/councils/etc will be able to tell the difference between a mixed or a sport route. It's all climbers, it's all bolts. It's about how we handle it and whether we're seeing to being responsible and whether we can be seen to be doing the right thing. If people act like dicks and they're climbing trad routes or sport routes they're still acting like dicks and the land owners or general public will react which is what will get us banned from great places like this.

timtom

2-Dec-2014
2:51:20 PM

You will ban yourself until you have paid for your crimes.


sbm

2-Dec-2014
5:59:54 PM

After a bunch of these conversations, my conclusion is if you don't like a bolt, chop it. We can make concerned comments on chockstone til the Point falls into the ocean, but action talks. You've got just as much right to chop it, as the guy that put it in has to drill it.

My second conclusion is that new routing in this day an age, when we already have lifetimes of established climbing, is selfish. Now, I'm not saying people shouldn't do it (hey I do from time to time) but this bullsh-t about "developing" routes for "the community" and for "new climbers" and "furthering the sport" needs to die. You're doing it for yourself, because you like the process for yourself, and so you and your mates can feel cool having your own areas that aren't in the guidebook and then feel cool having your names in the next edition. Even new "trad" routes usually involve heavily modifying the cliffs with "cleaning". We need to stop glorifying it.

Imagine if a guidebook stripped out all the first ascentionist names, and instead put in a list of people who'd been to crag & cliffcare days and who had been involved in improving access.

uwhp510

2-Dec-2014
6:06:26 PM

On 2/12/2014 sbm wrote:
>(truth-bombs)

f'n ay


Miguel75

2-Dec-2014
7:46:09 PM

On 2/12/2014 sbm wrote:
...SNIPEROO..
>Imagine if a guidebook stripped out all the first ascentionist names,
>and instead put in a list of people who'd been to crag & cliffcare days
>and who had been involved in improving access.

Word!

bigfish

2-Dec-2014
8:21:23 PM

On 2/12/2014 sbm wrote:
>After a bunch of these conversations, my conclusion is if you don't like
>a bolt, chop it. We can make concerned comments on chockstone til the Point
>falls into the ocean, but action talks. You've got just as much right to
>chop it, as the guy that put it in has to drill it.
>
>My second conclusion is that new routing in this day an age, when we already
>have lifetimes of established climbing, is selfish. Now, I'm not saying
>people shouldn't do it (hey I do from time to time) but this bullsh-t about
>"developing" routes for "the community" and for "new climbers" and "furthering
>the sport" needs to die. You're doing it for yourself, because you like
>the process for yourself, and so you and your mates can feel cool having
>your own areas that aren't in the guidebook and then feel cool having your
>names in the next edition. Even new "trad" routes usually involve heavily
>modifying the cliffs with "cleaning". We need to stop glorifying it.
>
>Imagine if a guidebook stripped out all the first ascentionist names,
>and instead put in a list of people who'd been to crag & cliffcare days
>and who had been involved in improving access.

I agree with with sbm, but these developers still need to be made aware that not all climbers agree with what they are doing.

Windjammer wall is not a sport crag, if there is no gear then put a ring in, but putting full lines of rings where there are placements for gear is poor form in keeping in with the style of the wall.

And why do it where there is not much room between routes anyway. At least some of the other additions to the wall like Hate mail and SS minnow and even Not all there keep in with the style of the wall. And they are great testing lines. Bolts where there is no gear and trad placements left so.

Nowra is close enough for you to get your sport fix if that is the style that you prefer to develop.

One Day Hero

3-Dec-2014
3:42:35 PM

I don't really have anything to add. Tim Tom is on the money.......about something or other?!?!

Olbert

3-Dec-2014
7:00:45 PM

On 2/12/2014 sbm wrote:
>After a bunch of these conversations, my conclusion is if you don't like
>a bolt, chop it. We can make concerned comments on chockstone til the Point
>falls into the ocean, but action talks. You've got just as much right to
>chop it, as the guy that put it in has to drill it.
>
>My second conclusion is that new routing in this day an age, when we already
>have lifetimes of established climbing, is selfish. Now, I'm not saying
>people shouldn't do it (hey I do from time to time) but this bullsh-t about
>"developing" routes for "the community" and for "new climbers" and "furthering
>the sport" needs to die. You're doing it for yourself, because you like
>the process for yourself, and so you and your mates can feel cool having
>your own areas that aren't in the guidebook and then feel cool having your
>names in the next edition. Even new "trad" routes usually involve heavily
>modifying the cliffs with "cleaning". We need to stop glorifying it.
>
>Imagine if a guidebook stripped out all the first ascentionist names,
>and instead put in a list of people who'd been to crag & cliffcare days
>and who had been involved in improving access.

Totally with SBM!

The only thing I have to add is that in NSW there is a limited supply of quality trad routes. There is plenty of sport routes of all grades. Putting up another sport route adds little value to the plethora of sport routes available. Putting a sport route within clipping distance (I'm being generous here) of epicly good trad lines greatly diminishes their value. So by putting in squeeze routes on the windjammer the overall value of climbing goes down.

Also whoever believes you can just not clip bolts on trad routes should go out and actually test that theory!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

3-Dec-2014
9:24:38 PM

I too agree with sbm's eloquent post that puts a new spin on old events.
I am further stoked that new generations with this attitude will keep trad climbing in safe hands.
Give the man a Dangerouser Cliffs T-shirt as further encouragement!!
;-)

timtom

4-Dec-2014
3:32:55 PM

Ok. I got it here all figured out. Beginning to end.
This is TimTom fourtwobeer pre ching.
Lets call me pot. I am righteous and holy. Im a climber(sort of, well, not realy) and I go down one of the back cliffs one day to suss out a root- for fame, fortune and glory. What I find is that the place has been riddled with bolts-a very nice place, lovely in fact. As I am a bit attracted to this place (now that eye has seen It), and because I am holy and righteuos with God comes to me and says' O boy what have you done? Immediately I say it wasn't me but one of my brothers(heres the accusation). Then, knowing that I am a cursed being involved as I am with these inferior animals who have effectively sioled my clothes, I also curse, so that the hole place is accused and accursed.
After a long time of fighting and kiiling each other, and when the wole place lies , shattered and desolate, I get up and say "well f--- It, you can have your bolt riddled piece of dirt, Im going'. and I storm off giving and receiving the eternal salutation of the anti Christ.
After trudging thro the wilderness for 40 days Im exhausted, sun scorched and battered, and upon finding a nice big Radiata pine I lie down and fall asleep hoping that I might never again wake up. But God had different plans. He came to me in my sleep and said 'mate, I have got what you need for everlasting peace and joy but I cannot give it to you. However your offspring will receive the gifts. Your offspring shall be called Hope, Charity and faith.
When I woke up three and a half days later under the pine, I was immediately hit on the head by a falling pine cone. The c--kapoos were up the tree munching on its head, sending, sending them down like missiles and giving off loud shreiks of laughter. I forgave the pooc--kers and tried too remember what I had dreamt but the fine cone waked me good and proper and all I could remember was vague allusions to a foul spring witl Dope, Chastity, Filth and a golden bolt ring.
Not to be continued
TimTom

One Day Hero

4-Dec-2014
5:39:28 PM

On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:
>Haven't most of them got carrots anyway?

No. Most of the routes at The Point do not have carrots, most of the routes at
The Point are trad routes. Most of the rest have a couple of bolts, but are 3/4 trad routes. How about you learn some of the facts related to whatever the fuch you're talking about, before offering up shitty ill-informed opinions?

One Day Hero

4-Dec-2014
5:44:39 PM

On 2/12/2014 surfziggy wrote:
>There's more fun in trying something hard that you can't do yet I reckon.

Why don't you try learning how to place gear then, you goose?

Wendy

8-Dec-2014
8:51:46 PM

I did a couple of the new sport routes and they are actually fun climbing on good rock (for the Pt). Sure, they don't go to the top, but the face routes at the Pt already suffer from being reduced to a few big moves between pockets at the top making an otherwise good route rather frustrating, and it hardly makes a good route to go from grade 21 to a 3 move 28 or 30. Did they ruin my experience of Windjammer, Icebird, Grey Mist or Tenere? Not at all. I am of the understanding that those which were too close to existing routes had already been chopped. Ring bolts are great.
Carrots suck. Really, they do. I wish people would get over them. Ok, the rings stick out like dog's balls. But still, has anyone heard of paint? A bit of beige paint will dramatically reduce the visual impact. And yes, take a rack of cams and you could cut out a few bolts easily. Which leaves me in the middle ground that the routes are worthwhile, but the bolts need camouflaging and they could be chopped into perfectly safe mixed routes, à la Not All There but with real bolts.

It isn't really hard to work out that it is a crag where bolts shouldn't go next to good trad placements. But some of these issues aren't a recent phenomena - Turning the tide is a retro and Not All There doesn't go to the top either. So how holier than thou can you get?

And probably my main issue is totally selfish - I like a quiet crag. If you took away all the people sport climbing at Windjammer the other weekend, you'd be left with us and Damo and Sarah. Which would be really quite fine by me. Sport routes bring crowds. Crowds suck as much as carrots. But really, they were the ones missing out. 'Cause those cracks are the best routes at the crag :)

rightarmbad

10-Dec-2014
12:10:18 AM

Unfortunately Wendy, painting stainless to camouflage them can have dire effects on stainless fittings, especially in an intense marine environment.

egosan

10-Dec-2014
8:21:45 AM

On 10/12/2014 rightarmbad wrote:
>Unfortunately Wendy, painting stainless to camouflage them can have dire
>effects on stainless fittings, especially in an intense marine environment.

Really? Truly? Care to be more specific? I have done a quick round of googling and found lots of mentions of using paint on stainless for aesthetic purposes, for the prevention of both pitting and galvanic corrosion. Even discussions on camouflage and navy boats. No mentions of any adverse effects. Granted I only dug around for ten minutes.

Please elaborate.

Cheers, Sol


shortman

10-Dec-2014
10:37:36 AM

Powder coating requires a way too complex process, different to hand painting.

There are 57 messages in this topic.