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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 6 of 13. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 257
Author
Carrot failure @ Muline
kieranl
19/11/2013
2:04:14 PM
Ah, Jim the Brick... it's a wonder there were any holds left on that climb after he was through with it.

Eduardo Slabofvic
19/11/2013
2:10:22 PM
Mr Drunk, in a rare sober moment
gfdonc
19/11/2013
3:16:18 PM
Index link for those that hadn't worked it out - http://staff.data.com.au/stoal/Araps1982/index.htm
gfdonc
19/11/2013
3:17:31 PM
On 19/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>Ah, Jim the Brick... it's a wonder there were any holds left on that climb
>after he was through with it.

I think you're thinking of Van Gelder not Thomas. Same era though.
kieranl
19/11/2013
3:20:04 PM
On 19/11/2013 gfdonc wrote:
>On 19/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>>Ah, Jim the Brick... it's a wonder there were any holds left on that
>climb
>>after he was through with it.
>
>I think you're thinking of Van Gelder not Thomas. Same era though.
>
Probably. Too many Jims, should have called them Bruce instead.

sliamese
19/11/2013
5:58:39 PM
>Phil sells those fancy extra long double thingy expansion bolts, they
>should be able to go in the original holes and be replaceable in umpteen
>years (probably way longer than the carrots have lasted) - go and grab
>some of them and get to work Damo!

DONT USE TRU-BOLTS!! they cannot be pulled out and upon needing replacement will need new holes drilled! oh unless you overdrill the holes to about 200mm deep and use something too punch them all the way up the back of the hole!

dynabolts can come out much more easily, i guess why i think glue ins!! what a broken record i am, but i think the classics need a good job done, tru-bolts and mild steel in general make it next to impossible to do that!!

Macciza
19/11/2013
6:40:13 PM
Maybe they would use Stainless Tru-bolts which wouldn't need replacing for 50 years (according to 'them' - even though I have seen perfectly OK 40 yo mild steel carrots) . . .

But then I guess the safety-nuts will take issue with the Nuts - Have they been tightened to the correct torque? How can I possibly tell? It may fail if it is too loose through lack of grip - Or if they did it too tight they may have stressed the metal? etc . .

Mind you they should probably also complain about the use of untested/uncertified home/chinese-made rings? Surely a certified commercial product is best . . .


maxdacat
20/11/2013
8:58:32 AM
As a general observation, isn't better that issues like this be discussed respectfully in an open rather than closed forum?

nmonteith
20/11/2013
10:44:21 AM
On 20/11/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>As a general observation, isn't better that issues like this be discussed
>respectfully in an open rather than closed forum?

This is an open forum.

The good Dr
20/11/2013
11:22:32 AM
On 19/11/2013 Macciza wrote:
>Maybe they would use Stainless Tru-bolts which wouldn't need replacing
>for 50 years (according to 'them' - even though I have seen perfectly OK
>40 yo mild steel carrots) . . .
>
>But then I guess the safety-nuts will take issue with the Nuts - Have
>they been tightened to the correct torque? How can I possibly tell? It
>may fail if it is too loose through lack of grip - Or if they did it too
>tight they may have stressed the metal? etc . .
>
>Mind you they should probably also complain about the use of untested/uncertified
>home/chinese-made rings? Surely a certified commercial product is best
>. . .
>

Can't have it both ways Macciza. If you can't tell these things about one type of bolt, how can you know everything about a 40 year old carrot?

The carrot that precipitated this thread was 'seen and looked perfectly OK' ... it was not. There is no disputing this.

Given your breadth of experience (and obvious carrot specific X-ray vision) providing reasoned input to the replacement of fixed gear would be good, particularly given that they will need to be replaced at some stage when they no longer are able to function as intended.

pecheur
20/11/2013
11:22:42 AM
On 20/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>On 20/11/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>>As a general observation, isn't better that issues like this be discussed
>>respectfully in an open rather than closed forum?
>
>This is an open forum.

I think he's implying at all such discussions should occur on the forums that aren't closed (restricted, no matter how loosely), not just this discussion ... Respectfully is very open to interpretation.
maxdacat
20/11/2013
12:40:39 PM
On 20/11/2013 pecheur wrote:

>>This is an open forum.
>
>I think he's implying at all such discussions should occur on the forums
>that aren't closed (restricted, no matter how loosely), not just this discussion
>... Respectfully is very open to interpretation.

That is what I meant.

Macciza
20/11/2013
4:10:09 PM
On 20/11/2013 The good Dr wrote:
>Can't have it both ways Macciza. If you can't tell these things about
>one type of bolt, how can you know everything about a 40 year old carrot?

My point was that a claim is often made regarding stainless's longevity and people often mention a 50 year min usable time - I was merely noting that I have seen mild steel bolts were still fine after 40 years I never said I knew everything about it.

>The carrot that precipitated this thread was 'seen and looked perfectly
>OK' ... it was not. There is no disputing this.

Well, strictly there is, I am not aware of any stainless steel bash-in carrots up in the Blueies, and personally I would probably be somewhat suspicious of it, certainly more concerned then if it was a reasonably rusted carrot . . .

>Given your breadth of experience (and obvious carrot specific X-ray vision)
>providing reasoned input to the replacement of fixed gear would be good,
>particularly given that they will need to be replaced at some stage when
>they no longer are able to function as intended.

That is what I in fact did - I responded to sliameses 'dont use tru-bolts' by noting that you could use stainless trubolts and get good longevity (i.e. 50 year min, prob still fine at 250) I then further noted the problem with try-bolts/expansion bolts in terms of tourqing of the nuts ( I often wonder whether people wonder about such things as this) and whether / how often it is done correctly, because basically there is danger in not using the correct figures for the bolt in question.
I then carried that basic safety concept further to it's logical conclusion of 'why would people use home-made uncertified rings?' Surely the concept of 'best practice' suggests that a certified product should be used or else why are why debating safety if we are going to ultimately use a home made product with unknown load carrying capability. Its the 'elephant' in the general bolting debate . . .

IdratherbeclimbingM9
20/11/2013
4:11:55 PM
On 20/11/2013 maxdacat wrote:
>On 20/11/2013 pecheur wrote:
>
>>>This is an open forum.
>>
>>I think he's implying at all such discussions should occur on the forums
>>that aren't closed (restricted, no matter how loosely), not just this
>discussion
>>... Respectfully is very open to interpretation.
>
>That is what I meant.

We can all see this discussion, so what is the problem?
... unless you mean the sometimes seemingly secret discussions of SCV, where it won't do you any good to disagree with the proceedings??
;-)
>

sbm
20/11/2013
4:47:41 PM
l>This is what I in fact did - I responded to sliameses 'dont use tru-bolts'
>by noting that you could use stainless trubolts and get good longevity
>(i.e. 50 year min, prob still fine at 250) I then further noted the problem
>with try-bolts/expansion bolts in terms of tourqing of the nuts ( I often
>wonder whether people wonder about such things as this) and whether / how
>often it is done correctly, because basically there is danger in not using
>the correct figures for the bolt in question.
>I then carried that basic safety concept further to it's logical conclusion
>of 'why would people use home-made uncertified rings?' Surely the concept
>of 'best practice' suggests that a certified product should be used or
>else why are why debating safety if we are going to ultimately use a home
>made product with unknown load carrying capability. Its the 'elephant'
>in the general bolting debate . . .
>

No sarcasm, don't you use a torque wrench?

sliamese
20/11/2013
5:00:19 PM
>That is what I in fact did - I responded to sliameses 'dont use tru-bolts'

tru-bolts are totally bomber, just a pain in the arse to replace when it needs doing. given your experience climbing you would have seen the crags in europe that have 2 or generations of bolts that all have their own hole, all looking ugly! just saying think about those in the future.

and sure theres plenty of bomber bolts/fixed gear of every kind. that doesn't justify its continued use!

>of 'why would people use home-made uncertified rings?' Surely the concept
>of 'best practice' suggests that a certified product should be used or
>else why are why debating safety if we are going to ultimately use a home
>made product with unknown load carrying capability. Its the 'elephant'
>in the general bolting debate . . .

you know as well as anyone that there's extensive testing been done by people on the typical home made glue-in bolt. i know i've loaded my U's to 15kN which in theory means i can rate them to 30kN as per AS1891.4. but who the fuch cares about Australian Sub-Standards anyway, not really relevant!

i think this debate shows why its not always best to have open slather discussions about this sorta crap as there's always someone with a red herring they know has no relevance to reality, but sticks by it. common sense must be employed, also being aware that people in high places do read these forums and can lose faith that climbers know how to manage themselves. one day parks in aus will catch up with the rest of the world, but until that happens we should be doing everything we can to ensure there's not a fatality some where like the Grampians, what would that do for access?

sure what bolt gets used doesn't really matter in the long run, but why not discuss, with some maturity and common sense what might be the best thing to use rather than letting the ego that taints australian climbing get in the way!!
mikllaw
20/11/2013
7:57:49 PM
>that I have seen mild steel bolts were still fine after 40 years
- and many aren't theses are the ones that worry us

>I am not aware of any stainless steel bash-in
>carrots up in the Blueies
- there are quite a few, fortunately they come out easily

> you could use stainless trubolts
-I've found expansion bolts of all types are great on vertical rock but loosen on steep rock due to bracket leverage and shaft stretch

climbau
20/11/2013
8:22:59 PM
On 20/11/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>>I am not aware of any stainless steel bash-in
>>carrots up in the Blueies
>- there are quite a few, fortunately they come out easily
>
From memory Good Day To Be A Duck and Pluck The Duck at Shipley Upper were a mix of mild steel and stainless bash-ins installed by someone very experienced with bash-ins in the Bluies.
The longer route of the two is still carroted and seems to lose a Stainless bolt every now and again. Hindsight is often 20/20. Lets learn from it and adapt accordingly.
climberman
Online Now
20/11/2013
8:58:16 PM
I once found some stainless bash ins on a rap belay above Unearthed. They came out with fingers, from memory one jiggled in it's hole.

nmonteith
20/11/2013
9:38:51 PM
On 20/11/2013 sliamese wrote:
>>That is what I in fact did - I responded to sliameses 'dont use tru-bolts'
>
>tru-bolts are totally bomber, just a pain in the arse to replace when
>it needs doing. given your experience climbing you would have seen the
>crags in europe that have 2 or generations of bolts that all have their
>own hole, all looking ugly! just saying think about those in the future.

PLEASE don't consider using these in the Grampians. You may think the Grampians rock is super bomber, but it is not. It has a softer core, especially in the Stapylton area - Tapian included. Myself and others used try-bolts for a few years at several crags and they all began loosening after a year or so. They won't fail, but they will wobble around and creep out bit by bit. They required constant tightening and eventual replacement. Amnesty Wall had particular problems due to very soft inner rock. Tru-bolts should only be used in very very hard rock - good volcanics.

They also have a bad habit of jamming when installing if the hole isn't exactly 10mm in diameter. A jammed bolt is then stuck half out of the rock, or even worse turns into a spinner - not matter how much you try and tighten it the whole bolt just spins in the hole. I reckon this happened about 1 in 10 tru-bolts we placed. You can't remove these jammed bolts so they need to be cut off, hammered in, then patched. Ugly.

On routes that don't get much traffic, or falls are not common (ie multi-pitch routes) tru-bolte will just require a tighten every few years - but at sport crags or popular routes this tightening is almost a daily annoyance.

Dyna-bolts work much better in the softer Grampians rock, and are easier to replace. BUT on steeper routes with high traffic even these get loose.

Regarding over-tightening. Although I don't use a torque wrench at the crag - I have used one at home to get a 'feel' for the correct amount of tightening required. Generally with 12mm dyna-bolts a good 'guide' is to use a spanner about 20cm long and tighten to max load with one arm. I've never been able to snap off the head of a 12mm dynabolt using this method. However in the smaller 10mm dynabolts (commonly used in the 90s) I have snapped the head off several by over-tightening in my early years.

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There are 257 messages in this topic.

 

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