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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion
General Climbing Discussion
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7:54:43 PM |
On 13/04/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >It could work, but it might need a balanced committee to represent the >demographics involved? we'd only need to agree on a few simple objectives which is practical. being different to a location based club. there could still be potential for having regional club outings - maybe practical quarterly or yearly. or annual pilgramiges. you got an interesting bio there IdratherbeclimbingM9, nice pics of buffalo climbs. i think i'll put up a few pics too. |
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9:19:40 PM |
I've got no problems with people wanting to go sport climbing, but they shouldn't turn up a trad climbing crag and try turn the place into a sport crag because they don't like placing gear. | |||||
7:43:18 AM |
Cliff, what I've heard from people I know using them is that personal trainers push people harder than they're willing/able to push themselves, show them how to use equipment safely, and vary their workouts too keep them interesting/targeting weaknesses/etc. Much like having a good mentor or paid guide climbing really... |
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11:40:46 AM |
Really, am I the only person who finds it a bit rich when others want you to teach them when you either don't know them at all or have only just met them? Or when people post on chocky they've only ever climbed in a gym and would like someone to take them outdoors or only ever climbed sport and would like someone to take them trad climbing? What they are basically asking for is a guide. a free guide. who as they also don't know you from a bar of soap, may or may not be any good. It might sound like a nice fuzzy free and unregulated system, but it is asking a lot of the people who do know their stuff to pass it on all nicely like that. I personally am over it. Only people who actually mean something to me get those sort of favours. Anyone else can bloody well pay for it. I think people romanticise the days when we all just learnt by osmosis somehow with very little real teaching, because basically everyone just wanted to get on with their own climbing. Which is fair enough, but doesn't lead to good teaching and most of us really did arse our way through. Some people even had nasty accidents as a result. I'm all for people learning in a manner that leads to being safe and doesn't drain on good willed people out there. And if that means that most people will have to shut up and pay a guide, so be it. Note, I'm trying very hard not to guide these days, so I'm not even promoting my own work. And of course, a few days guiding doesn't replace the years of practice needed to be really on the ball, but it does set people up the right way to go out and continue learning and makes them at least competent enough not to be a massive pain in the arse to others who might then climb with them |
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1:01:31 PM |
On 14/04/2013 Cliff wrote: >This has gone very OT... Agreed... people should pay others to motivate them and sheep them from getting bored. Why do that hard psychological work yourself. It's been shown that external encouragement makes people try harder than they otherwise would. I know a strategic "Come on" or "Go for it" or whatever from a belayer or spotter can shift my focus to pushing a little harder. > And pay others to teach them how to sit on big plastic balls and run without hurting themselves. Why do almost all successful teams have coaches? Third party perspective on things is very useful. Sometimes people (particularly beginners) don't have the physical skills required to determine whether they have good form. They might think they're in a good position for a particular movement but because they can't actually see themselves they can't tell that they're not. The climbing analogy here would be having a spotter/belayer/guide/movement coach/etc watching you climb and commenting on what you're doing or perhaps videoing yourself and reviewing it to determine if what you think you're doing is actually what's happening. The latter does work, but sometimes the former is more effective. >And like someone said earlier, guides are not expensive. Regardless of how much they cost, there are obviously some people who find the benefits of paying outweighs the costs. Others benefits I didn't mention are things like time management. It's often easier for some people to pay someone to show up than it is to coordinate with someone with the appropriate skills to show up. >To bring this back on topic, maybe the proposed club could lobby that it be mandatory that anyone wanting to learn to climb must do an approved course by a guide. And all climbers must have a licence to climb granted by guides, and these must be renewed annually to make sure everyone is safe, safe, safe. Guides should regulate this process. And all guides should have to go OS each year and pay more experienced certified guides to do courses and examinations to certify that they are safe enough to teach for the next year so all everybody can be safe, safe, safe. No need to try and bring it back on topic. I was just trying to give you some ideas on why people might use PTs/coaches/trainers/guides/etc. |
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1:16:40 PM |
On 14/04/2013 Wendy wrote: > Only people who actually mean something to me get those sort of favours. >Anyone else can bloody well pay for it. .........unless they have really nice boobs. Or if they're cool and interesting/ talented and enthusiastic. Old jaded experienced climbers need belayers who provide enthusiasm and bring a bit of joy back to an activity which has become a little stale. Newish climbers with talent who've gotten to the point where they can get up stuff need someone to get the bullshit out of their systems. This has always been the trade which serves both sides. It's how I learnt to climb, and to be honest, I'd rather climb with someone slightly green but keen and malleable, than a "fully qualified climber" who is boring as fuch to hang out with. I'm sorry, but I reckon climbers who aren't prepared to do anything slightly sketchy while they're working things out will probably be pussies for life. Having epics early on (even if they're mostly in your head) shapes your approach to climbing, and filters out the choads who can remember everything they're taught but have no problem-solving skills. >I think people romanticise the days when we all just learnt by osmosis >somehow with very little real teaching, because basically everyone just >wanted to get on with their own climbing. No, it was freaking cool fun, best adventures ever! |
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1:21:29 PM |
On 14/04/2013 Cliff wrote: >Tx Andrew. I'm sorry you spent some much time pointing out the obvious, but appreciate the gesture :) No worries. Didn't seem to be getting my point across so I thought I'd try again with a few more words. |
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1:38:01 PM |
Whenever I see people out with P.T.'s I just feel really sorry for them. You could make all the same arguments as to why prostitutes are the best way for people to learn about sex. I understand that some people can't organise a root without paying for it, and it's absolutely better than remaining celibate, but.............. | |||||
2:09:15 PM |
On 14/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote: > >.........unless they have really nice boobs. Or if they're cool and interesting/ >talented and enthusiastic. I'm sure I said you'd take that approach earlier. > >Old jaded experienced climbers need belayers who provide enthusiasm and >bring a bit of joy back to an activity which has become a little stale. I haven't found climbing to be stale for starters. >Newish climbers with talent who've gotten to the point where they can get >up stuff need someone to get the bullshit out of their systems. This has >always been the trade which serves both sides. It's how I learnt to climb, >and to be honest, I'd rather climb with someone slightly green but keen >and malleable, than a "fully qualified climber" who is boring as fuch to >hang out with. I generally like climbing with someone whom i know can hold my ropes safely, manage themselves safely, can help get us out of trouble if shit hits the fan, etcetc. I don't like having to be constantly keeping an eye on someone. And I seem to have plenty of fun people to climb with in that bracket. But of course, if we are all boring as fuch, you can find your keen and malleable newbie. By the sounds of things, you like your newbies a little further down the spectrum then where I am thinking of anyway. By the time they have a basic capacity to look after themselves, they don't need basic instruction and can assess whatever bullshit is thrown at them by other climbers for themselves. And if they can't, I'm sure you wouldn't be interested in climbing with them anyway. Unless they were particularly nice boobs. > >I'm sorry, but I reckon climbers who aren't prepared to do anything slightly >sketchy while they're working things out will probably be pussies for life. >Having epics early on (even if they're mostly in your head) shapes your >approach to climbing, and filters out the choads who can remember everything >they're taught but have no problem-solving skills. There's no shortages of epics and sketchiness and working things out to be done in climbing anyway. > >>I think people romanticise the days when we all just learnt by osmosis >>somehow with very little real teaching, because basically everyone just >>wanted to get on with their own climbing. > >No, it was freaking cool fun, best adventures ever! Well, they make good stories in hindsight, but I'm glad I'm not living through them again. |
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2:25:02 PM |
On 14/04/2013 Cliff wrote: >Wendy your earlier post went along the line of... >I, an old climber, and my pals weren't intro'd to climbing via a guide. >We had near misses, but learned and survived anyway. >I see many people also having near misses. Oh dear. >This is bc they lack knowledge and need basic instruction. >This should come from a guide. >Then some guiding spam. > >I think the way you and your mates learned is fine. And this is supported >by the fact that most of you are still around and there is so much more >info readily available now. 30 years ago there were few books, magazines, >videos, gyms or climbers to learn from and no CS or WWW. And better gear, >etc. Basically, I believe that if Damo, AJF, M9, V9, and Macca taught 50 >newbies, this group would have the same amount of accidents and injuries >in 20 years of climbing than 50 newbies taught by 5 Arapiles guides. I >believe this because 99.9% of the learning happens afterwards. I'm saying >that in terms of future climbing safety guiding is on par w learning from >a competent pal; and disagree w you that guiding is better than that. And >learning from a friend is a richer experience. > The bit you seemed to have missed is that I'm not talking about people learning from a competent pal. I did say I still happily teach people who mean something to me. The bit that shits me is people thinking it's ok to ask to be taught willy nilly. These people should find themselves a guide. And also that there are people out there fancying themselves as mentors passing on poor practices. In an ideal world people would get a basic grounding from someone genuinely competent and with some capacity to pass that information on effectively. From this point onwards, they aren't really impinging on anyone if they just turn up at Araps and look for a climbing partner - just a climbing partner, not a teacher. If that person decides they like this person enough to invest some teaching time in them, fine. They are impinging on someone if they just rock up, and wander around the campsite saying, hey I hear the climbing here is really great, can you teach me how to? The other thing this comes back to, is that these clubs we are talking about often end up run by the same people again and again and again. Suggesting that only a small number of climbers in this world actually care to put in the effort to organise trips and teach others on a voluntary basis. So rather then saying, all these trad climbers should nicely offer their services to spread the word of trad to the sportclimbing infidel, why shouldn't we just say they can pay for a guide if they don't have an appropriate friend willing to teach them? |
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6:31:27 PM |
On 14/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote: >Having epics early on (even if they're mostly in your head)... Sounds like every time I go climbing. Mental epics every day, while my belayer thinks I'm cruising. |
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6:53:37 PM |
On 14/04/2013 Wendy wrote: >Really, am I the only person who finds it a bit rich when others want you >to teach them when you either don't know them at all or have only just >met them? Or when people post on chocky they've only ever climbed in a >gym and would like someone to take them outdoors or only ever climbed sport >and would like someone to take them trad climbing? You need to get to,the big smoke a bit more often. |
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8:15:23 PM |
On 14/04/2013 ratherbeclimbinv9 wrote: >Cliff, I think you're massively over-emphasising your point. Maybe you're >the guy who spends all his time teaching new punters to place and evaluate >gear - bully for you if so, but I'd still suggest you're in the minority. > And as M9 said - spending all your time doing that means giving up a lot >of potentially more interesting and challenging climbing. > I don't consider myself as having given up 'more interesting and challenging climbing'. I admit to not doing as much of it as I would like, but that is a different thing, and also comes from more reasons than introducing new climbers to the game. |
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8:48:47 PM |
On 14/04/2013 Wendy wrote: >I'm sure I said you'd take that approach earlier. That doesn't make you psychic or anything, we had that conversation once! >I haven't found climbing to be stale for starters. Somewhat remarkable given the length of time you've been living in Nati. Take Simey as a comparison. It's not like he doesn't enjoy climbing anymore, but he's not exactly frothing about it...........I imagine he might have been a bit more psyched 20 years ago. >But of course, if we are all boring as fuch, you can find your keen and >malleable newbie. Why do you think I climb with you every time I'm down there? -Enthusiasm beyond what could be reasonably expected after 20yrs of climbing? Check -Climbing skills totally sorted? Check -Seeks out interesting routes? Check -Is up for full days (unlike the rest of the Nati climbers)? Check -Knows how to argue properly about inconsequential nonsense? Double Check! -Nice boobs? Check Perfect climbing partner really :) |
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9:58:31 PM |
Wendy's got nice boobs? I knew there was a reason why everybody says I should go to Araps. |
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9:31:10 AM |
On 14/04/2013 One Day Hero wrote: >Somewhat remarkable given the length of time you've been living in Nati. >Take Simey as a comparison. It's not like he doesn't enjoy climbing anymore, >but he's not exactly frothing about it...........I imagine he might have >been a bit more psyched 20 years ago. You have hit the nail on the head there ODH. But I am frothing about footy. We beat Rupanyup for the first time in 17 years on Saturday. Imagine your longest siege in climbing and multiply it by god knows... that's what playing for Nati has been like the last 15 years for me. |
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9:40:39 AM |
Is that two wins in a row Simon? | |||||
9:55:10 AM |
Like Wendy and most of the (ahem) more senior climbers I learned from friends, survived the first few years and got relatively competent / safe. Now somewhat more affluent I've been able to hire a guide when on overseas trips without a partner - and really enjoyed learning new / updated skills & techniques from them. My kids are learning from me (old school) and also via school / "rock" camps at the local gym, and I have no doubt they will be climbing higher grades than me by the time they are early teens, due to better tuition / training / indoor climbing opportunities (and a parent who is keen and got them into it young). Strikes me there are many ways to learn climbing, and a combination of all of them is best, if you can. Anyway, I'm happy to teach occasional people to climb, or rather teach them about trad & multipitch fundamentals. Like M9, mostly to get partners as my long-term partners are climbing less & less. Should probably put myu money where my mouth is and volunteer to help out at the SRC some time... |
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10:07:41 AM |
On 15/04/2013 Cliff wrote: >On 14/04/2013 ratherbeclimbinv9 wrote: >>Cliff, I think you're massively over-emphasising your point. > >That was my intent. I was trying to make the point that learning from >a competent pal can be a good enough start to climbing (worked for Wendy >and tens of thousands of others who are still climbing), and the rest can >be learned the traditional ways wo hiring a guide. Of course, in the absence >of climbing amigos one can hire a guide. > Even climbers with a reasonable amount of experience can benefit from climbing with a guide for a day, particularly on trad. I'm staggered at the number of people who climb pretty well who still do weird and funky stuff, or who don't know the simplest ways to do things (particularly rigging belays), or who still place pretty average protection. These climbers (because they already have a good foundation of knowledge/experience) have huge opportunity to absorb new stuff as they are less likely to be suffering from information overload compared to beginners. They can ask questions until the cows come home about what practices are relevant to what situations and get reassurance about whether their approach to climbing is sound. Two people hiring a guide for the day is pretty cost effective. Outlining exactly what you want from the experience means the day is tailored for you. The experiences and knowledge gained from one day with a guide might be the equivalent of many, many days bumbling around yourself - where even then you might still be asking yourself, 'Am I doing this right?' >Maybe you're >>the guy who spends all his time teaching new punters to place and evaluate >>gear - bully for you if so, but I'd still suggest you're in the minority. > >No, the only pure gumbies I climb w are friends. When I reflect on my >climbing 'accomplishments', introducing my mates to climbing ranks #1. >1 still climbs hard 25 years later, and coaches kids. Pure joy. Totally agree. |
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10:09:30 AM |
On 15/04/2013 technogeekery wrote: >Strikes me there are many ways to learn climbing, and a combination of all of them is best, if you can. Sums it up really. |
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