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Ethics / First Ascents


rodw

20-Aug-2012
12:31:21 PM

On 20/08/2012 pecheur wrote:
> To make a belay station on a 60 m climb is reasonable (in
>the Australian context), bolting a crack is not.

They found bolts at base of crag.. that doesn't indicate intent..only way to find that out would be to ask directly...Are you going to use bolts? ....and discuss that with them direct (not through mike who was a third party to the matter).....was this done?.

mikllaw

20-Aug-2012
12:36:24 PM

What a mess. You’re right in saying that no one owns the rock, but there is a long tradition of giving people time to do a route, particularly if they have spent a lot of time cleaning it.

I gave the route a rap and did a light clean, enough to know that it was too hard for me and tried to interest people in doing it. A few years later Monique got on it, she was the only one to go down there and the only one with the energy to spend two sessions on the rope cleaning it. For that reason alone she should be given the courtesy of allowing her some time to do it.

Zac tried it one day and fell, then rang me to make sure he wasn’t stealing a project off me; I appreciated the courtesy. I explained that it wasn’t my project but Monique’s and that she’d spent a lot of time cleaning it, when Zac said ok I assumed Zac meant he wouldn’t steal it off her. Zac then went back and did the line.

Zac; it doesn’t look good when Macca is your spokesman! We’ve all done bad things, and this is a bad precedent. I have lots of other projects you are welcome to. I think the best thing would be apologise and give Monique a nice bottle of wine, and maybe clean another good line for her.

Macca- the trad dream is a great thing and there are plenty of people doing it; you like to be a loud proponent. I humbly suggest that bursting out on these trad dreams by either aiding up sport routes and then preplacing gear, or being dragged up them by Zac, isn’t really living the dream. Go climbing.


Miguel75

20-Aug-2012
12:51:03 PM

On 20/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>What the hell is Miguel doing on Chocky? I thought you got clean, mate.
>
>p.s. Come to the Blueys, you pussy

As my favourite cowboy once said, "I wish I knew how to quite you Chocky!" Then I realised that's a defeatist attitude as only quitters quit and I'm not a quitter; I'm a committer! Unless my wife says no; then I'm an obeyer;)

I'm still trying for the bluies though it's looking grim at present...


Macciza

20-Aug-2012
2:00:06 PM

On 20/08/2012 mikllaw wrote:
>What a mess. etc . .

Agreed. There is also a long tradition of competitive climbing on routes with various aids used before the final clean ascent.

I believe Zac did contact S&M and his decision was based on those discussions. My decision was based on my discussions with Zac.

I am not being Zacs spokesman - I am speaking for myself. It generally takes two to climb and I so I am co-responsible for 'enabling' Zac.
I am simply responding for the part that I played in all this. I can't apologise for Zacs success but I am sorry if she is upset by the part I played.
I would certainly pitch in for a bottle of wine for Monique, and was looking at cleaning up the pitch above the ledge as a continuation.

Mikl - Thanks for the comments. Yes I guess I do say what I believe; but I do also try to live up to it. Unfortunately that also puts me in the firing line sometimes, as devils advocate.

Re: Aiding up sport routes and preplacing gear I guess you are referring to Thumbs Out at Sublime, for the record, I approached it ground up 2 or 3 times, to a point of clear and present danger before climbing the route to the left and downclimbing to inspect for gear, and yes I did try the moves to see if they went and what danger would be presented if I decided to refuse to place artificial aid/protection instead of relying on natural protection, however discovered. I don't think I warned people off attempting to climb, just to not bolt it.
The other stuff at Thumb Roofs I have solo aided, semi-freed cleaning then gone back and led. Maximum mileage in my mind . . .

As to being 'dragged up them' by Zac - whilst yes I do play a 'supporting role', apparently some people find it hard to believe that there are many times when I have been the one to make the initial attempts, to unlock key sequences or forge into the unknown. Some of them have been cases where his 'equals' have not been prepared to venture, and some I may have even 'dragged' Zac onto . . . I do have some climbing ability, and I think we make a pretty good team in our element . . .
I don't claim to living the dream, I merely speak my mind on what I might think the dream should be, for my own sake and those seeking to find theirs . . .
I try to get out climbing as much as possible, but also try to adhere to my ethics as much as possible, and the two do not always coincide . . .
Cheers


Pat

20-Aug-2012
2:02:46 PM

Ah - good reputations . . . .so hard to come by . . so easily lost.

patto

20-Aug-2012
2:03:58 PM

On 20/08/2012 rightarmbad wrote:
>"It may not present such a hard ‘tick’ to some but for me it was a personal
>challenge, one which I wanted to pursue. I will still try to do the route
>but now it will be lackluster."
>
>The personal challenge still exists.
>It's only lessor in her own mind.
>
>I wonder if she thinks 'Whistling Kite' is a lessor achievement because
>others have done it first.
>Or does that one not count as she can claim the first female ascent?
>
>
>
>Really, this is petty.
>Take one large step back from climbing and take in a big gulp of air.

Totally agree.

This all comes down to naming and bragging rights. Which is all about EGO. I can understand why monique is a little annoyed and disheartened. But her reaction is over the top.

Her quote that I do agree with. "Can we please leave primary school behind and behave like adults? Climbing should be fun, let’s keep it that way."

But then, again... What do I know. I don't hang with the elite or climb elite.


wallwombat

20-Aug-2012
2:07:55 PM

On 20/08/2012 Macciza wrote:

>I believe Zac did contact S&M and his decision was based on those discussions.

What makes you say that?

All the other players in this fiasco are emphatic that there was no contact made prior to the ascent.

It seems that Zac's phone call to Mikl was the only "contact" made and what Mikl said seems to have been totally ignored.


sliamese

20-Aug-2012
2:45:54 PM

i think monique had about as much rights as someone who bolted a clean route, say on taipan wall. sounds like she invested more effort than bolting a clean piece of rock, but if there was stainless steel in the wall, no australian would argue with the project thing, bizarre.

it sounds like he did it on pre-placed gear? if so what the fuss all about, the FA is still up for grabs!!!! ;)


Macciza

20-Aug-2012
2:52:07 PM

On 20/08/2012 wallwombat wrote:
>On 20/08/2012 Macciza wrote:
>
>>I believe Zac did contact S&M and his decision was based on those discussions.
>
>What makes you say that?
>
Umm my direct involvement and quotes attributed to Simon regarding the route, their intentions and reasons . .
Ok I probably should have said 'I believe there 'had been' contact between Zac and Simon.

>All the other players in this fiasco are emphatic that there was no contact made prior to the ascent.
Maybe I was stoned and imagined it then, or maybe they messages relayed via Mike . . .

>It seems that Zac's phone call to Mikl was the only "contact" made and
>what Mikl said seems to have been totally ignored.

I seem to recall more than one 'contact' being made, but just ignore me, what would I know . . .


davidn

20-Aug-2012
2:53:03 PM

I would be very surprised. During his recent attempts on a much harder crack nearby (which makes me wonder why he was so keen on this), apparently he was fanatical about placing the gear on lead even though it put him near hitting the ground on a number of occasions.

patto

20-Aug-2012
3:04:26 PM

On 20/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>I would be very surprised. During his recent attempts on a much harder
>crack nearby (which makes me wonder why he was so keen on this), apparently
>he was fanatical about placing the gear on lead even though it put him
>near hitting the ground on a number of occasions.

Isn't that TRAD climbing?

One Day Hero

20-Aug-2012
3:30:41 PM

The best way to view this whole situation is to replace the words 'route' and 'crack' and 'project' with the word 'girlfriend'.

Once you do that, it sounds exactly like an episode of Days of Our Lives........especially Mikl's post about how "no one owns their girlfriend, but if you've spent a lot of time cleaning her, you deserve to have the first few shots" :D


BundyBear

20-Aug-2012
3:35:52 PM

On 20/08/2012 One Day Hero wrote:

>
>Once you do that, it sounds exactly like an episode of Days of Our Lives........especiall
> Mikl's post about how "no one owns their girlfriend, but if you've spent
>a lot of time cleaning her, you deserve to have the first few shots" :D

GOLD !!!


rodw

20-Aug-2012
3:47:01 PM

+1 ODH..you made a funny :)

pecheur

20-Aug-2012
4:16:09 PM

On 20/08/2012 davidn wrote:

Okay what ODH said wasn't bad, but seriously David, if you're saying what I think you're saying, that's really quite offensive to Monique.


davidn

20-Aug-2012
5:16:24 PM

Fine - I've deleted mine, go ahead and delete yours. I'm not going to apologise for having a 12 year old's sense of humour though.


ajfclark

20-Aug-2012
5:24:21 PM

On 20/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>I'm not going to apologise for having a 12 year old's sense of humour though.

It's not like he was using it anyway...

widewetandslippery

20-Aug-2012
5:35:48 PM

davidn that was bloody funny and I missed it until you were castigated. As also one with adolescent humor I feel ashamed.

I personally think eyeing the line and doing something about it is the degree to this social property, its my route thing. Niether M or Z found the hottie in the first place, a mate did. M put some work in but the crack liked Z.

If either of them had gone out to find princess themselves then they certainly have a reason to feel grasscut but they had the line served on a plater.

Anyone like that movie delicatesion?

patto

20-Aug-2012
7:38:50 PM

I used Find and Replace to replace 'climb' with 'love' and crack, project and route with girl.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don’t often comment publicly on negative comments or destructive actions of others, whether they are directed at me or not. I’m a big girl. I know precisely what I have achieved with my loveing over the years. I set my own goals and love because I love it. I don’t allow myself to get distracted by schoolyard pettiness. This time however I wanted to have my own voice about an incident that has recently affected me.

Earlier this year Michael Law and I went out to love Slipstream, a five pitch classic located at Perry’s. The other reason for this outing was to check out an unloveed girl girl of Michael’s which he had been dangling under my nose for quite some time. To cut a long story short I tried it on top rope and did most of the moves. It’s a girl, and girl loveing is not my strong point, but it is something that I wanted to get better at. I thought by doing this girl I would learn a thing or two and perhaps it would make me a more rounded loveer. From the onset I was captivated by the girl. It is 60-metres long and split by a natural ledge at half height. The first half is where the business is, a splitter finger girl breaching the impeccable orange face. I was psyched and determined to invest the time and energy to clean it and then send it. So over the following weeks I had static ropes in place and progressively cleaned out the girl to the top.

On the day before we left on our Queensland trip I went down there again. I completed cleaning the upper girl and had shots. I was incredibly close to sending it that day (I did it with one fall at the last hard move) but had to leave it until we returned from our trip up north. I left enough blood and chalk in the girl that a blind bat could tell someone was working it. There was also a piton (with tat on it) at the start of the girl to indicate that it was a girl.

We are in Queensland now and yesterday I read online that the girl girl had been done. Surely not? That must be another girl? But as I looked at the photo I began to recognise the features of the girl and reality hit.

It’s a girl, it’s hard to have a girl ‘girl’ (closed girl), despite all of the work I put into it, these things happen. But the more I learned about what had happened the more utterly disheartened I became.

The loveers who did the first free ascent of this girl contacted Michael Law to get an update, obviously because they had seen evidence of someone working it. Michael explained that I was actively trying the girl and told them to leave it alone. So they knew precisely the situation and knowing this they went ahead regardless. They abseiled 180-metres into the Grose Valley with the intention to make the first ascent of the girl that I had spent days cleaning and which I intended to free.

I agree people have known about this girl for years but when I started work on the girl there were no other takers. You would think that if someone was working the girl then the courteous thing to do would be to wait your turn. I mean is it not common practice, or more so respect, to stay off a girl until the tag is removed, signalling that the girl had been sent? It may not present such a hard ‘tick’ to some but for me it was a personal challenge, one which I wanted to pursue. I will still try to do the girl but now it will be lackluster.

I am astonished that these people, who I thought were my friends, would do such a disrespectful thing. I travel widely with my loveing, and on occasions I have heard other loveers (that have visited the Blue Mountains) comment on the negativity of the community there. I am disappointed by what I hear. Isn’t it time for us as a collective community to pull our heads in and take note? Can we please leave primary school behind and behave like adults? loveing should be fun, let’s keep it that way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

patto

20-Aug-2012
7:41:08 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Yes. I belayed Zac on it, and attempted it myself . . .
It is a girl that had been seen by numerous people before being cleaned up by Mikl, declared loveable, and then offered up to lot's of people as a 'competition' open girl in 2010. It often came up as an option when deciding 'what to do' . . .

Without knowledge of Moniques recent activity, Zac went and had a ground-up shot last week, falling at the end of the hard loveing. He subsequently found a stash of staples further up the love seemingly meant for the girl. He contacted Mikl to see if he knew who had been on it recently. Further inquiries by Zac revealed that another party (Monique and Simon) had been further cleaning and top-roping the girl, were claiming it to now be their girl and were intent on further cleaning and placing a belay mid-pitch to avoid the full pitch gear requirement.

For a variety of reasons and after some consideration I decided to join Zac to enable him to have a second attempt at the girl. He chose a rather extensive rack and went for it, eventually taking a large fall at the end of the hard loveing; and then lowering to the ground. After pulling the rope I had a shot or two, but fell trying to get established in the main crack. Zac got through the hard section on his next try and went to the top. I followed cleaning the pitch, but had to pull on some gear through the harder parts of the lower section. The upper section is definitely still grubby but is typical of that that style of Blueies loveing - yeah, you could spend another few hours 'cleaning' it out but it would make little difference to the actual loveing. I don't know for certain whether her cleaning made any difference to Zacs ascent but I am pretty sure the top part would not have been any harder or unloveable if uncleaned.

I do consider Monique a friend - my actions were not motivated by any dislike or disrespect to her as a person. They were based upon the traditions of loveing of open trad girls - we approached it in as a good a form as we could (all things considered) hoping to succeed - I'm sorry but I can't apologise for Zac's success. He could just as easily have failed - there was not going to be any 'working' of the moves, top-rope rehearsal etc. We were simply there to see if he could love the girl and thereby have our say on how the girl should be. I hope that Monique can appreciate some of these points, and I hope to be able to discuss with her sometime soon . . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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