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rope access question (on your own gear)


phil_nev

15-Dec-2011
5:51:32 AM

On 14/12/2011 The good Dr wrote:
>Difficult to work out if this question is real or a troll.
>
>What you will find is that there are laws and regulations covering this
>type of work

True... But how many rope access guys still use Petzl harnesses which do not comply with australian Standards... All of them??


Climbau

15-Dec-2011
6:28:03 AM

Hi Clinton,
It is best you confine your questions on Rope Access to more appropriate forums (I see you are on Rigg Access) and even refer back to the company where you did your training. IRATA and ARAA are the main local industry bodies and a great point of reference.
Recreational climbing forums have a high population of folks who may not be knowledgeable or aware of the specifics of RA and the associated documentation.
However, there are also folks in the industry still running on 20 year old assumptions Or have particular alliances and have never read the approprite documents and just taken anothers word as gospel. By all means ask questions around the traps, but also do your own research and of course seek top quality training regularly.

I am sure the Good Dr, WW&S, Sliamese & JC would agree.


chossbagger

15-Dec-2011
9:25:12 AM

Industrial rope access has had a long hard road proving itself over time to industry in terms of safety and has established excellent track records of minimal incidents and injuries. As a professional rope tech I find this type of thinking disturbing as it does nothing to lift the profile of our industry and bolsters the position of those that consider rope access to be unsafe and risky. Seek some IRATA training if you wish to abseil off buildings and you will be paid for it rather than risking prosecution and thwarting the hard work the professionals in the industry have done over the last few decades to lift the image of what we do for a living.

widewetandslippery

15-Dec-2011
9:39:03 AM

On 15/12/2011 Climbau wrote:
>Hi Clinton,
>It is best you confine your questions on Rope Access to more appropriate
>forums (I see you are on Rigg Access) and even refer back to the company
>where you did your training. IRATA and ARAA are the main local industry
>bodies and a great point of reference.
>Recreational climbing forums have a high population of folks who may not
>be knowledgeable or aware of the specifics of RA and the associated documentation.
>However, there are also folks in the industry still running on 20 year
>old assumptions Or have particular alliances and have never read the approprite
>documents and just taken anothers word as gospel. By all means ask questions
>around the traps, but also do your own research and of course seek top
>quality training regularly.
>
>I am sure the Good Dr, WW&S, Sliamese & JC would agree. I agree.

The cowboys are danerous to themselve, there employees and financially devalue legitimate hard work.


sliamese

19-Dec-2011
6:24:04 PM

>True... But how many rope access guys still use Petzl harnesses which
>do not comply with australian Standards... All of them??

a better question is how many Australian Standards comply with reality.

if you want a petzl harness for use in aus, i can print you out a 'Certificate of Compliance' detailing its compliance with AS1891/4488. or you can just ask your local spelean/petzl dealer and they'll happily issue it.

sorry for any offence, simply noting that the techniques used by guides are different from rope access/IRATA. namely a sit harness not being good for the goose and the gander. (I do both jobs!)

but as the other guys said, if your asking questions on this forum, you SHOULDNT be doing any kind of rope access work and its the kind of industry where small dodgy operators(not implying you are) get weeded out, though not always quick enough to damage the reputation of the industry.

Richard Delaney

19-Dec-2011
10:51:18 PM

WWS - I'm afraid SRT is about as Australian as Vegemite.
SRTE is wholly owned by Capital Safety (not Australian) who is in turn owned by KKR - a global private equity firm.
So, given there is now no Australian business, buy the best rather than making do.
Richard


Climbau

20-Dec-2011
6:59:24 AM

On 19/12/2011 Richard Delaney wrote:
>So, given there is now no Australian business, buy the best rather than
>making do.
>Richard
Or what about Wild Stuff harnesses and slings, Whaletails (still a great rescue lowering systems device) and Blue Water staric ropes and cords. All still made in Oz and owned by Ozzies (BW probably pays a royalty to BW america)! :)

Richard Delaney

20-Dec-2011
7:29:16 AM

Yes, sorry, I'd forgotten that Deb was still making stuff.
As for rescue type stuff, Sterling HTP rope leaves everything else for dead ( just a pity it doesn't meet AS4142.3 - which was written for BWater by it's maker) and the CMC MPD is completely changing everyone's approach to rescue lowering/raising/belaying.
Richard


climbau

20-Dec-2011
9:18:49 AM

On 20/12/2011 Richard Delaney wrote:
>As for rescue type stuff, Sterling HTP rope leaves everything else for
>dead ( just a pity it doesn't meet AS4142.3 - which was written for BWater
>by it's maker)
Actually by a committee which is formed by many persons from varying industry sectors. Also, the marker requirements are in line with relevant overseas best practice. Some countries recommend a marker tape denoting Use For Life Safety or Use For Throwline etc. Makes sense when it comes to inspection logs where the inspector may not necessarily be the user.
I agree HTP is great for minimising stretch, but as with all things, there are trade-offs. Unfortunately it will always be a case of "horses for courses" and as usual a thorough RA is a must.

>and the CMC MPD is completely changing everyone's approach
>to rescue lowering/raising/belaying.
Indeed. Great device.

I was originally just pointing out that Aussie made still exists. Features and benefits of products can be debated until the cows come home. And Chockstone is probably not the forum for this in regards to professional gear. :)

Happy to discuss via PM or email. Opportunities to learn are always exciting. :)

*EDIT* Just had another look at Sterling HTP. Not the rope I was thinking of earlier in this post. So may have to re-look at it at some stage.
*EDIT2* Still happy with rope thoughts re HTP advantages and disadvantages.


Eduardo Slabofvic

20-Dec-2011
9:31:58 AM

On 19/12/2011 sliamese wrote:
>>its the kind of industry
>where small dodgy operators(not implying you are) get weeded out

Yeah, the small ones.


phil_nev

20-Dec-2011
4:23:30 PM

On 19/12/2011 sliamese wrote:
>>True... But how many rope access guys still use Petzl harnesses which
>>do not comply with australian Standards... All of them??
>
>a better question is how many Australian Standards comply with reality.
>
>if you want a petzl harness for use in aus, i can print you out a 'Certificate
>of Compliance' detailing its compliance with AS1891/4488. or you can just
>ask your local spelean/petzl dealer and they'll happily issue it.
>
>sorry for any offence, simply noting that the techniques used by guides
>are different from rope access/IRATA. namely a sit harness not being good
>for the goose and the gander. (I do both jobs!)

None taken mate. Just an observation from someone newish to the industrial safety world (working for SpanSet).

Not sure what you mean regarding the sit harness?? Guiding is a different animal all together. But you can get full body harnesses suitable for industrial rope access very similar to petzl versions that DO meet the aust standards from a number of manufactures, not just the one I work for. I actually had 3 or 4 laid out on the floor in front of me last week looking at the differences.


rodw

21-Dec-2011
1:19:46 PM

Just ask these guys for advice...they are obviously pros....


Miguel75

21-Dec-2011
2:49:56 PM

That's a bomber looking trakky dak waist cord...

White Trash

21-Dec-2011
3:32:48 PM

cj76 doing glazing work insted of window cleaning now?

Telco-rigger

28-Apr-2016
7:49:42 AM

On 19/12/2011 sliamese wrote:
>if you want a petzl harness for use in aus, i can print you out a 'Certificate
>of Compliance' detailing its compliance with AS1891/4488. or you can just
>ask your local spelean/petzl dealer and they'll happily issue it.
>

Would you be able to email me a certificate of compliance for Petzl harnesses ?


NST

8-Feb-2017
1:01:02 PM

>if you want a petzl harness for use in aus, i can print you out a 'Certificate
>of Compliance' detailing its compliance with AS1891/4488. or you can just
>ask your local spelean/petzl dealer and they'll happily issue it.
>

Sorry but the certificates still does not make the equipment compliant for construction or telco industry as per AS/NZS1891.4

Safe Work Australia Code of Practice - Managing the Risk of Falls at Workplaces
6.3 Individual fall-arrest systems

Individual fall-arrest systems Individual fall-arrest systems consist of some or all of the
following components:„
anchorages
„lifelines
„inertia reel
„lanyard of fixed length „
retractable lifelines
„rope grabs
„wire grabs
„rail system„
shock absorbers, both personal and industrial
„harness„snap hooks (double or triple action to prevent rollout)„
karabiners (double or triple action to prevent rollout)
„rescue equipment.

Individual fall-arrest systems rely on workers wearing and using them correctly, and
therefore workers who will use such a system must be trained in its safe use.
They should only be used where it is not reasonably practicable to use higher level control
measures.

Relevant Australian/New Zealand Standards for personal fall-arrest equipment require that
they be permanently marked or labelled to indicate their purpose, correct use, limitations
and other relevant information aimed at reducing misuse of the equipment.

technogeekery

8-Feb-2017
2:36:09 PM

Interesting point (even if it is to an old thread, I'm interested in the answer / clarification).

As I understand it, there is no law or regulation saying that equipment (harnesses for example) must meet AS/NZS1891.1. The Code of Practise you cite does state "All equipment used for fall-arrest should be designed, manufactured, selected and used in
compliance with the AS1891 series of standards." While that is not a regulation, WHS law does indicate you must meet or exceed CoP guidelines. So either your equipment should comply with the AS, or I guess you can choose to make a case for example that it meets EN 361, EN 813, EN 358 etc and so exceeds AS.

Alternatively, I believe some manufacturers/importers will provide a certificate of compliance with 1891.1 - but I'm not sure how that could be validated without getting certified by a qualified certifier - in which case they could use the AS mark.

A lot of dancing around - but clearly it is simpler for most WHS auditors / safety officers just to say "we won't accept it as safe/compliant unless it has the AS mark" as it cuts out the guesswork.

I'd love to get advice on this point from someone who really knows the law / best practise. As part of my job I have to inspect height safety PPE of my subcontractors - and try telling an experienced rigger that his beloved $1000 Petzl harness is non-compliant, but a no name brand $129 roofers kit from Bunnings is better 'cos it has the AS mark on it!

widewetandslippery

8-Feb-2017
2:45:03 PM

On 21/12/2011 rodw wrote:
>Just ask these guys for advice...they are obviously pros....
>
>

what soft c--k would use a rope for that?

patto

8-Feb-2017
7:01:12 PM

On 8/02/2017 NST wrote:
>Safe Work Australia Code of Practice - Managing the Risk of Falls at Workplaces
>6.3 Individual fall-arrest systems

But are we talking about fall restraint or fall arrest systems here. Industrial roped access with waist harnesses would typically be under fall restraint not fall arrest.

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2017
8:00:17 PM

On 8/02/2017 patto wrote:
>Industrial roped access with waist harnesses would typically be under fall
>restraint not fall arrest.

Rope access doesn't mesh easily with the systems of either fall restraint or fall arrest. Intentionally dangling yourself on a rope sends most sections of those codes down the toilet.

Like a lot of administrative systems which have evolved over decades, the whole code should be scrapped and rewritten.

There are 41 messages in this topic.