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$11,000 fine for building a cairn


rodw

14-Jun-2011
12:50:36 PM

I wouldnt contact em TBH, just dont build anymore cairns...you start pushing they will push back harder.

jono_1

14-Jun-2011
1:07:04 PM

Here are some govt websites on the broad headed snake.
http://www.threatenedspecies.environment.nsw.gov.au/tsprofile/profile.aspx?id=10413
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicspecies.pl?taxon_id=1182
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/nature/tsprofileBroadheadedSnake.pdf

Here is some info I have extracted from above documents:
- West to north west facing cliff tops (i.e Tianjara) are prime habitat for these snakes
- Nowra hinterland region is at the southerly limit of their distribution
- Their distribution today would appear to be centred in four key areas; Blue Mountains, southern Sydney, an area north west of the Cumberland Plain and the Nowra hinterland.
-They utilise rock crevices and exfoliated sheets of weathered sandstone during the cooler months and tree hollows during summer.
- Threats include:
*removal of bush rock for home gardens. Removal of bush rocks disturbs not only
broad headed snake but their main food source- geckos. Also the gecko's food
source is disturbed by moving bush rocks.
* 'Disturbance - the species is thought to be sensitive to incidental and/or intentional
disturbance to the surface rock they utilise.'
- Management options include 'Regulation of removal of surface bushrock from areas of
known habitat (Mahony 1997) as well as the sale of bush rock'.

So it would appear that whilst the sign might be new, there has been concern regarding the broad headed brown snake since the 1990s, which is much longer than the recent re-discovery of Tianjara by climbers. The sign would appear to be a direct result of the recent influx of climbers clearly disturbing bush rocks to make cairns, which are an essential habitat for these snakes and their prey.

So the easy option is don't kick up a fuss, don't make any more cairns and avoid disturbing any rocks on the cliff tops. Easy!!! And it is really not that hard to navigate your way around Tianjara especially with an aerial map from google.

SteveH

14-Jun-2011
4:45:07 PM

Why hate the snake? They are not stopping or banning climbing – it has just been requested to not move their habitats around. Climbers (in general) seem to respect voluntary bans on routes or crags for nesting birds (Bardens Lookout/Araps), endangered rock wallabies (Grampians), Lambing season (Castle Hill), but the snakes don’t get a fair go?!
Saying that there are plenty of rocks around and that it is a large area with a new road actually comes across as quite arrogant and the statement surprised me. It is a threatened species, in its natural environment, in a recognised colony (for lack of knowledge of a better/more technical term).
Cairns are not a necessity. There are plenty of other options. I think the issue is more anti-‘The Man’ than cairns and snakes. Maximum fines are generally meant to seem excessive and act as a deterrent, and are very rarely enforced. Same goes with prison sentences.
I have to agree with the people that are encouraging keeping a low profile and not adding cairns, or contacting rangers to proactively discuss their opinions for ongoing track management for the region.

Dr Nick

14-Jun-2011
4:49:09 PM

On 14/06/2011 rodw wrote:
>Broad headed snakes habitat is crevasses' with rock on rock i.e not rock
>over dirt/ ground etc....your more likely to find them halfway up a cliff
>than under a rock sitting on the ground...

Did I mention the snake I saw halfway up the lower cliff at the Motherlode?


nmonteith

14-Jun-2011
5:33:41 PM

I am in agreement that the snakes get the right of way - and should be protected. I guess I was just surprised to see the sign - it's the first time I've ever seen anything of that nature at a climbing area. No new cairns is easy to do. We'll just have to endeavor to make better guidebook topos so the geographically challenged climbers can get to the climbs.


tnd

14-Jun-2011
5:35:24 PM

If they get lost the snakes can eat them.


atreyudelacy

14-Jun-2011
9:06:22 PM

well asides from the $11,000 fine and 6 months imprisonment; learning that theres a good chance of a snake being under a rock would probably be a good enough deterrent for me not to want to move one in the first place!

Linze

16-Jun-2011
7:04:42 PM

On 14/06/2011 superstu wrote:

And why are there such piss poor turnouts to the Blue Mts
>Track Care days? Can't people see the connection between proactive engagement
>with land managers and better access results

unless you read the sign on the way into to shipley/bardens? (did I also see a sign at Piddo once?) or waste your life checking facebook, would people know what track care was doing?? Does BMCC organise track care?? i dont actually know but i always assumed it was a joint thing between them and some regular climber participants? if so why is the engagment net not spread a little wider?? are many Sydney folk involved or is it mainly Bluies full timers?? ive been climbing for more than a decade and noone has ever said anything about it to me, except for one guy that donated plenty of his time to rebolting but seemed to have something against the track care scene, not sure why?? track care sounds like a good idea, but realistically the masses are not going to get involved unless they have good knowledge of it. how often do you walk straigt past a poster and take no notice of it?? not meaning to be critical so much as to point out that maybe 'piss poor turn outs' are because not enough people have the info at their fingertips, or maybe they dont even feel as though they are really part of the whole thing??..for those whose participation is marginal someone might have to lead them across the line?? the rate of new routing in the bluies over the past few years seems to indicate that people are enthusiatic, so poor turn outs seem to be more than just apathy

>It's depressing that climbers have such a poor relationship with Parks
>NSW. Climbers generally seem completely uninterested in broader ecological
>issues and stubbornly reluctant to accept they have an impact on significant
>ecosystems worthy of preservation. It would seem the ideal situation from
>most NSW climber's perspectives if we ended up like Europe, where every
>bit of nature has been totally trashed, every mountain has a kiosk on the
>top, every forest is a plantation and every stream polluted. As Sydney's
>population continues to increase its only a matter of time until we end
>up like that. Is Parks NSW so bad that they should be disbanded and everyone
>and their dog should have a free reign to do as they wish with the remaining
>bushland? How quickly would everywhere get trashed!? You've only got to
>visit national parks in other countries to appreciate how lucky we are
>to have such pristine environments right next to our cities. And thank
>god we've got Parks - the alternative is every scrap of green is bulldozed
>and carpeted with McMansions - that would be fuched.
>
positioning yourself as the environemntally enlightened and everyone else is a destructive fool doesnt seem like a great way to get people on deck for your 'different vision of the future'... maybe these kind of attitudes are contributing to the disinterest in collective action in the Bluies???

yosemite05

16-Jun-2011
10:05:00 PM

The cairns should be removed and replaced with bright colored triangles painted onto the rock like the track to Taipan Wall. And bring back the letters painted at the base of climbs. That didn't bother the snakes.

TonyB

17-Jun-2011
7:58:02 AM

On 16/06/2011 yosemite05 wrote:
>The cairns should be removed and replaced with bright colored triangles

Nah, NPWS would prefer lots of signs and raised boardwalks to every crag, along with amenities buildings and ranger quarters.


rodw

17-Jun-2011
8:05:22 AM

>On 14/06/2011 superstu wrote:
>>It's depressing that climbers have such a poor relationship with Parks
>>NSW.

Its comes from years of NPWS being very anti climbing with knee jerk reactions and ill informed policies directed at a user group of the parks without consultation. I can guarantee those in the parks read and know about climbing forums and climbing groups but they never contact us if they have an issue but rather suddenly change POM's to restrict us, put up signs etc which adds to the poor public relations.

Over the years, especially when I started developing new areas, I constantly tried to contact NPWS on policy on what they would or would not allow.....most of the time I was meet with silence, unreturned phone calls etc and if I did manage to speak to someone they either gave me wrong info or simply said they didn't know.

State forests on the other hand I find really approachable and interested in engaging in there users groups......

....in summary i dont thinks its a climber issue, more an NPWS managment issue who dont view public relations as part of there management role. If state forests can get it right why are NPWS so fuked at it?


kuu

17-Jun-2011
9:00:23 AM

Regarding Blue Mountains TrackCare ...

On 16/06/2011 Linze wrote:
>
>unless you read the sign on the way into to shipley/bardens? (did I also
>see a sign at Piddo once?) or waste your life checking facebook, would
>people know what track care was doing?? Does BMCC organise track care??
>i dont actually know but i always assumed it was a joint thing between
>them and some regular climber participants? if so why is the engagment
>net not spread a little wider?? are many Sydney folk involved or is it
>mainly Bluies full timers?? ive been climbing for more than a decade and
>noone has ever said anything about it to me, except for one guy that donated
>plenty of his time to rebolting but seemed to have something against the
>track care scene, not sure why?? track care sounds like a good idea, but
>realistically the masses are not going to get involved unless they have
>good knowledge of it. how often do you walk straigt past a poster and
>take no notice of it?? not meaning to be critical so much as to point out
>that maybe 'piss poor turn outs' are because not enough people have the
>info at their fingertips, or maybe they dont even feel as though they are
>really part of the whole thing??..for those whose participation is marginal
>someone might have to lead them across the line?? the rate of new routing
>in the bluies over the past few years seems to indicate that people are
>enthusiatic, so poor turn outs seem to be more than just apathy
>
BMCC established TrackCare because, although given encouragement, climbers failed (over a lengthy period) to get themselves organised in this regard. The Work Days are coordinated by Tobin Sorenson and Damien Taylor and have been promoted on this forum by Mikl and others.

The two remaining Work Day dates for 2011 are September 11 and November 5.

Tobin Sorenson is the BMCC Bush Officer.

Damien Taylor is a climber, who also happens to work for BMCC, and has been involved in these types of endeavours dating back to the time of the original Blue Mountains Cliffcare. I'm sure he would welcome more help with the numerous tasks still to be undertaken and he can be contacted as follows:
email dtaylor (AT) bmcc.nsw.gov.au [ replace AT with @ ]
phone 02 4780 5361
mobile 0414 195 085

SteveH

17-Jun-2011
11:38:13 AM

On 17/06/2011 TonyB wrote:
>On 16/06/2011 yosemite05 wrote:
>>The cairns should be removed and replaced with bright colored triangles
>
>Nah, NPWS would prefer lots of signs and raised boardwalks to every crag,
>along with amenities buildings and ranger quarters.

Would they really?! To climbing crags?! Every crag?! I might join NPWS!

The things I learn on chockstone continue to surprise me!

gfdonc

17-Jun-2011
11:53:37 AM

On 17/06/2011 SteveH wrote:
>The things I learn on chockstone continue to surprise me!

Yeah. That Tobin Sorenson is alive and kicking and working in NSW surprised the heck outa me.


kuu

17-Jun-2011
12:21:06 PM

On 17/06/2011 gfdonc wrote:
>On 17/06/2011 SteveH wrote:
>>The things I learn on chockstone continue to surprise me!
>
>Yeah. That Tobin Sorenson is alive and kicking and working in NSW surprised
>the heck outa me.
>
Oops, stupid me! What a weird drift backwards in time.

I should have written SOREN MORTENSEN, he's the BMCC Bush Officer who, along with Damien Taylor, coordinates the TrackCare activities.


nmonteith

17-Jun-2011
12:26:23 PM

ok - I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused about that name!! Here I was thinking that he had been resurrected somehow?


kuu

17-Jun-2011
1:14:07 PM

On 17/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>ok - I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused about that name!! Here I was
>thinking that he had been resurrected somehow?

You know, I would have thought there'd be a whole generation of Chockstoners out there who'd never ever heard of Tobin but you proved me wrong Neil ;-)

I remember watching him climb at Booroomba (way back) when he visited Oz with a British climber called, I think, John Allen.


nmonteith

17-Jun-2011
1:30:29 PM

On 17/06/2011 kuu wrote:
>You know, I would have thought there'd be a whole generation of Chockstoners
>out there who'd never ever heard of Tobin but you proved me wrong Neil
> ;-)

You do realize I'm not exactly young anymore? Next year is my 20th year anniversary of climbing! There is probably at least two generations of climbers younger than me now. Tobin's name is on quite a few scary routes at Araps and even in my home state QLD. I've been spanked on a few of them. :-)


wallwombat

17-Jun-2011
1:37:58 PM

There was a editorial in Rock, a while back (The Scary Issue), that spoke of Tobin Sorenson's first ascent of Tjuringa, at Araps. I think that might have clued a few Australian climbers up to who Tobin Sorenson was.

I first read about him in John Long's writings.

spicelab

17-Jun-2011
2:12:17 PM

On 17/06/2011 wallwombat wrote:
>
>I first read about him in John Long's writings.

I well remember a typically entertaining John Long article in Climbing or Rock & Ice called something like "The Way of the Whopper" that had some very amusing anecdotes about climbing with Tobin Sorenson.

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