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$11,000 fine for building a cairn

ithomas

14-Jun-2011
9:59:52 AM

Hundreds of cairns aren't enough? How incompetent are the climbers who use this area?


nmonteith

14-Jun-2011
10:03:47 AM

I reckon a more friendly interpretative sign would be a better way of communicating the problem with this endangered animal. Threatening $11,000 fines for doing something that lots of people have already done just seems overly harsh. Carin building has been the standard low impact practice of marking trails for eons. It looks a lot less ugly than flapping tape or nailing fluro tags to trees.

I wonder if the rangers would be ok with climbers installing the later examples?

Should we dismantle the current cairns to discourage others from continuing to build them? (many of them are many years old and could potentially have snakes in them now).


nmonteith

14-Jun-2011
10:06:15 AM

On 14/06/2011 ithomas wrote:
>Hundreds of cairns aren't enough? How incompetent are the climbers who
>use this area?

It's a complex area with very 3D geography. There are five decent gullies - all of which are not very obvious from above. The amount of cairns currently isn't an overkill. They are all small and subtle. I don't think there is any need to build new cairns - but could climbers be retrospectively charged for building them in the past?


tnd

14-Jun-2011
10:08:00 AM

Easy solution: don't build cairns. Who the fcuk needs them? Especially a tech head like you Neil, with a GPS enabled phone. Publish co-ordinates and let people find their way without cairns.


Eduardo Slabofvic

14-Jun-2011
10:11:59 AM

On 14/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>I reckon a more friendly interpretative sign would be a better way of communicating
>the problem with this endangered animal.

Like "Please do not disturb or move rock..", oh no that's no good. This is Chockstone, I forgot, how about "Stick those cairns up your arse, you limp dicked retro cairner". That's more like it.


Superstu

14-Jun-2011
10:12:11 AM

A photo trail should be enough surely.

Maybe someone should contact Mr Ranger and advise
(a) climbers will not build any more cairns along the escarpment
(b) would like to know if existing cairns should be removed or left alone
(c) invite ranger to write a few words about the broad headed snake and efforts to preserve its habitat for the upcoming guide

climberman

14-Jun-2011
10:27:02 AM

kuu and superstu I think are bang on the money.

I have met the rangers who cover that area through involvement with major construction in the area. They are people who work with SFA funding, protecting a large area, with a range of statutory obligations they are charged with undertaking. Funnily enough in a National Park protecting known threatened species and their known habitat is pretty high up the list of things they're asked to do. I've found them to be pretty pragmatic but dealing with climbers' antics can be difficult as there's hardly a typical peak body like many other sports. They probably didn't want to make a big deal of it but thought that spending $2000 to put up a sign might be an easy way to do it. While broad-headed snakes have a reasonable distribution for a threatened species, they have a very narrow range of preferred habitat within that distribution.

superstu's last suggestion is a great one - why not show we actually give a fcuk ? How hard is it to help a critter - it's a critter which specifically inhabits areas we also enjoy. I'd have thought there'd be some affinity with it. The 'need' for cairns is pretty low, even if they do make things handy sometimes.

Neil, being from vicco you guys may not be aware that in NSW walkers have traditionally had a pro vs anti cairn long term argument goping (think of it like boots vs volleys, ie not life and death, but people hold some strongish views on the matter).

Technically the fine and imprisonment is a max penalty (ie, wilful, purposful, with intent, etc). That said..... you've now been formally warned by a sign.


nmonteith

14-Jun-2011
10:32:27 AM

On 14/06/2011 superstu wrote:
>A photo trail should be enough surely.

Whats a photo trail?

>Maybe someone should contact Mr Ranger and advise
>(a) climbers will not build any more cairns along the escarpment
>(b) would like to know if existing cairns should be removed or left alone
>(c) invite ranger to write a few words about the broad headed snake and
>efforts to preserve its habitat for the upcoming guide

Good idea. I'm happy to ring someone if anyone has any idea who to ring. There is no contact signage in the carpark or on that sign.


BundyBear

14-Jun-2011
10:33:25 AM

The sign as been there for ages (was there all last year), it got put up when they upgraded the carpark, etc. We have already flatten out and removed some of the obvious cairns.


Superstu

14-Jun-2011
10:39:35 AM

On 14/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>On 14/06/2011 superstu wrote:
>>A photo trail should be enough surely.
>
>Whats a photo trail?

A series of photos from the carpark to the descent gully from the perspective of the walker showing significant features to head for. Include arrows etc if need be in digi pic. Or get Bundy in a bear suit to pose at each turn in the track.


nmonteith

14-Jun-2011
10:43:13 AM

On 14/06/2011 BundyBear wrote:
>The sign as been there for ages (was there all last year), it got put up
>when they upgraded the carpark, etc. We have already flatten out and removed
>some of the obvious cairns.

I hadn't been there for a year probably. Weirdly none of you guys told me about this potential access problem!


kuu

14-Jun-2011
11:03:54 AM

On 14/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>
>Good idea. I'm happy to ring someone if anyone has any idea who to ring.
>There is no contact signage in the carpark or on that sign.

From the 2001 Plan of Management ...

" Additional information or enquiries about any aspect of the plan may be obtained from the Service's South Coast Regional Office at 55 Graham Street, Nowra or by phone on (02) 4423 2170. "

ithomas

14-Jun-2011
11:25:08 AM

Neil
Stop worrying about a "potential" access problem, don't fret over why people didn't contact you, don't build any more cairns, be unobtrusive and get climbing or read a book.
Ian


grantoss

14-Jun-2011
11:45:40 AM

its time to start using more subtle track marking techniques such as spray paint...

in all seriousness there are about a billion cairns at that area, yes its a complicated area but the quantity and size of the cairns out there is overkill for sure.

bones

14-Jun-2011
11:47:40 AM

On 14/06/2011 tnd wrote:
>Easy solution: don't build cairns. Who the fcuk needs them? Especially
>a tech head like you Neil, with a GPS enabled phone. Publish co-ordinates
>and let people find their way without cairns.
>

I don't know the area, but wouldn't this apprach lead to multiple criss-crossed trails, increasing the environmental impact?

widewetandslippery

14-Jun-2011
11:49:13 AM

On 14/06/2011 ithomas wrote:
>Neil
>Stop worrying about a "potential" access problem, don't fret over why
>people didn't contact you, don't build any more cairns, be unobtrusive
>and get climbing or read a book.
>Ian

I think this is what most of the regulars down there, particuarly in that location do. What I tried to get across is that the cairns have been there a long time, the ranger noticed this a long time ago and mentioned it to climbers. As a result according to bundys post, no new cairns.

As for the fine I imagine Mr Ranger looks in his how to fine book and it says max. fine, prison etc and thats what gets put on sign. If the max is $11000 and he puts $25 on it and he is found out he is screwed, whether he likes climbers or not.

And IMHO don't contact national parks, they like all govt. departments are self serving.


nmonteith

14-Jun-2011
11:59:55 AM

I'm intrigued to know where the National Park ends and the random state forest (or whatever it is) begins. According to the usually inaccurate Google Maps the National Park ends at the lookout and the climbing areas are actually outside of it.


rodw

14-Jun-2011
12:29:29 PM

Look on the SIX viewer with latest topo, it will have Nat parks border marked on it.

climberman

14-Jun-2011
12:37:14 PM

regardless of location, your legal responsibilities regarding threatened species stand.


jezza

14-Jun-2011
12:48:48 PM

Yeah, this seems pretty absurd to me as well.
- there's rocks everywhere anyway
- you're not taking them away, you're moving them (what kind of snake can't cope with that?)
- you're providing nice new homes - are you supposed to destroy the old cairns/homes?
- $11,000 / 6 months ??

On 14/06/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>Good idea. I'm happy to ring someone if anyone has any idea who to ring.
>There is no contact signage in the carpark or on that sign.
Agreed but if I was you I'd call to 'apologize and find out what you should do about the existing cairns' ;)
I'm sure you get the drift.

There are 65 messages in this topic.