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Anchoring advice

Crimpn-like-a-Pimp

6-Apr-2010
5:23:11 PM

Question:

Setting up the anchor to belay your 2nd-er person through the pitch, it seems logical to have all anchor pieces set to take a downwards directional force. Then when you continue to climb after 2nd-er person has reached belay point, it would be logical to have all anchor pieces set to take an upwards directional force for the leader but logical also to have pieces with downward direction force for the safety of 2nd-er, belaying.

So when you are setting up an anchor and you cant find multi-directional protection to protect both the leader as the belayer, the 2nd-er as the climber and belayer, is there a good method to ensuring the safety of both climbers and minimising gear brought up a route?

For example if i were to have 3 anchor points for my belay station, and at all 3 i had to choose either upwards or downwards directional force, would i then best put 6 pieces of pro in so each of the 3 anchor points had a bit of gear to take an 'up' and 'down' force if required?

apologies if this is confusing...


nmonteith

6-Apr-2010
5:27:09 PM

Personally I rarely ever place an upward pulling anchor, I just use at least one cam or wire in a horizontal placement so it will take both angles of force. If i did place a specific upwards pulling piece I would only use one. Once a leader has placed a few bits of gear the belay is really pretty redundant anywhere in the scheme of things. I've held lots of falls on multipitches and have never had any gear pull from the belay.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-Apr-2010
8:49:35 PM

I always try to build at least a three point anchor on multipitch, with two (preferably three) pieces good for the downward load and one (usually the lowest), for the upward load.
Multi directional gear, eg a bolt(!) is even better!!
Cordelettes etc, help in equalising loads, and the latest version of this also accounts for a degree of sideloading as well.
If the pieces are less than bomber, then more are added and equalised till the whole arrangement is multidirectional/redundant and won't extend, or cascade fail, if any one (or more), pieces rip, ... as it is not unheard of that a belay has taken both an upward force and then downward force soon after, when other gear rips and the leader falls past the belay...


evanbb

6-Apr-2010
8:51:16 PM

Agree with Neil. I do use an upwards piece when someone much lighter than me is belaying, which to be honest is pretty regularly.

I actually think in some situations an all upward piece anchor or even majority upward piece anchor can be pretty unsafe. It means that if the belayer sits on the anchor, which I do all the time he could accidentally pull all the pieces, fall off the edge, pull the leader and both hang in space off one piece, laughing hysterically.

gfdonc

6-Apr-2010
9:26:47 PM

I try to make sure that one piece will take an upwards pull, and have that as the lowest piece in the belay.

As Neil said, most cam placements can take a pull from different directions (but not all). Opposing chocks (like wires) can be bomber as they prevent each other from taking a pull in the wrong direction.

The big danger is that you'll get yanked upwards and unseat some of the other gear.


ajfclark

7-Apr-2010
8:57:44 AM

If you place all upwards pieces and your leader falls before placing more gear you a going to be in a lot of trouble. Like most others here, I'd be looking for a couple of downward and an upward piece on most anchors. If I can find multidirectionals, all the better.

Have you read John Long's Climbing Anchors 2nd Ed.? I found it a very useful book.


cruze

7-Apr-2010
10:11:09 AM

Upwards pieces are not merely for stopping a light belayer from being yanked up during a leader fall on the next pitch.

In the event of a bad leader fall on that next pitch it may become necessary to secure the climber and escape the belay to ascend to the climber. In these instances, the entire weight of the climber (and possibly you depending on the situation) will need to be held by the belay. If the belay has been set to accomodate only an outwards or downwards force this will make it very difficult to escape the belay safely. Remember that the entire weight of an unconscious climber may be on your harness and/or the anchor. Shifting around to reorganise a belay may be very difficult if not impossible.

A cam in a horizontal may be sufficient.

It may be a good idea to think about this when setting up your next belay before passing all of the gear to the leader.


ajfclark

7-Apr-2010
10:45:46 AM

On 7/04/2010 cruze wrote:
>A cam in a horizontal may be sufficient.

Why not a cam in a vertical crack?


nmonteith

7-Apr-2010
10:48:36 AM

On 7/04/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>On 7/04/2010 cruze wrote:
>>A cam in a horizontal may be sufficient.
>
>Why not a cam in a vertical crack?

I think he was talking about a piece with a dual purpose - holding both up and downward force.


ajfclark

7-Apr-2010
10:51:35 AM

Isn't a cam in a vertical capable of holding an upwards or a downwards force? Isn't that why the make a good first piece because they're omnidirectional?


nmonteith

7-Apr-2010
11:02:20 AM

On 7/04/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>Isn't a cam in a vertical capable of holding an upwards or a downwards
>force? Isn't that why the make a good first piece because they're omnidirectional?

I don't think so. I don't like the idea of a cam having to rotate in a crack 180 degrees to be positioned the right way. The cam needs to face the intended force. Link cams are especially dodgy in this regard - if you make them rotate even slightly under load there is a good chance the lobes will break.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

7-Apr-2010
11:07:27 AM

On 7/04/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>Isn't a cam in a vertical capable of holding an upwards or a downwards
>force? Isn't that why the make a good first piece because they're omnidirectional?

A lot depends on the crack involved.
SLCD's are meant to be placed in anticipation of the expected loading. The fact that they 'walk' / can pivot relatively easily, can be as much a negative aspect as a positive.
If the vertical crack is basically parallel and the cam is still well within it's usable lobe range after it pivots from loading, rope drag, etc then it can/should hold the force in the new direction of loading.
If the crack is irregular and a lobe extends into a cavity or other strange event/twisting occurs when it 'walks' (eg trapping the rope under a lobe!), then I would not want to be relying on it's new alignment to save me.
The situation is easily remedied by placing two cams (one for upward, and one for downward loading), and if necessary linking them!


ajfclark

7-Apr-2010
11:19:39 AM

On 7/04/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>A lot depends on the crack involved.
>If the vertical crack is basically parallel and the cam is still well within it's usable lobe range after it pivots from loading, rope drag, etc then it can/should hold the force in the new direction of loading.

*nods* This lines up with how I've seen them behave in general.

>If the crack is irregular and a lobe extends into a cavity or other strange event/twisting occurs when it 'walks' (eg trapping the rope under a lobe!), then I would not want to be relying on it's new alignment to save me.

Yup, part of the reason I find cams less than ideal in some placements is their mobility.


cruze

7-Apr-2010
11:23:21 AM

It may be possible to readily adjust the direction of a cam in a vertical crack to align it for upwards force in order to escape a belay etc.

Passive gear is generally less versatile.

And yes, of course, it does depend on rock, situation, etc etc etc.....

My post was merely to emphasise that it may be too late to readjust an anchor to safely anchor a suspended/injured leader if you haven't given some thought to upwards forces.

Personally I have never had to escape a belay to ascend to an injured climber. But I think that it would be prudent for all of us to consider worst case scenarios. Even (especially) beginners. Leader falls off low angled climbs at Araps like Syrinx (for instance) are far more likely to cause serious injuries than leader falls off Despatched (which someone was on on Sunday).


ajfclark

7-Apr-2010
11:28:06 AM

On 7/04/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>I don't think so. I don't like the idea of a cam having to rotate in a crack 180 degrees to be positioned the right way. The cam needs to face the intended force.

Does that mean you place two cams as our first piece when leading, one for the outward/up zipper prevention and one above that in case you fall or do you rely on a single cam rotating?


nmonteith

7-Apr-2010
11:32:17 AM

On 7/04/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>Does that mean you place two cams as our first piece when leading, one
>for the outward/up zipper prevention and one above that in case you fall
>or do you rely on a single cam rotating?

My first piece is designed to hold a downward force - but its usually a cam or a horizontal wire so it also holds the third type - the outward force! When setting up a trad belay I almost always place a high piece about 2m metre into the next pitch so the lead climber can just climb on through and clip it as their first bit of gear negating any factor 2 factor.


mattjr

7-Apr-2010
1:20:18 PM

On 7/04/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>If you place all upwards pieces and your leader falls before placing more
>gear you a going to be in a lot of trouble. Like most others here, I'd
>be looking for a couple of downward and an upward piece on most anchors.
> If I can find multidirectionals, all the better.
>
>Have you read John Long's Climbing Anchors 2nd Ed.? I found it a very useful book.

Yes agree, also found Craig Luebben's book 'Rock Climbing Anchors - A comprehensive guide' very informative

..Mr Clark, feel free to post the link if you like ;)


nmonteith

7-Apr-2010
1:25:29 PM

Interesting side note - much of the popular American and European trad climbing areas have fully bolted belays - even on routes that are all trad. The 'skill' of setting up a decent equalized trad belay is actually something that Australians have a lot more experience of than the rest of the world!


ajfclark

7-Apr-2010
1:33:31 PM

Matt, can I please borrow your copy of Craig Luebben's book 'Rock Climbing Anchors - A comprehensive guide'?


Phil Box

7-Apr-2010
4:20:06 PM

One thing I really really like to do when setting up a multi pitch trad belay is to have those pieces well high. I then extend myself down from the anchor, rarely will I clip directly into the power point. This gives me a lot of room to work with should the need arise.
1. It leaves me room to work should I need to haul.
2. It leaves me room should I get yanked up if the leader falls. Less chance that the load will come onto the anchor.

I don't particularly want to see the anchor disturbed once it is set so if I am well below that high anchor that means that the anchor should stay set and undisturbed in any scenario. I've been known to climb up several metres to get a high piece in to ensure that my anchor is high. I think this is good policy. I hate crowded anchors. Of course this all depends doesn't it as to the availability of pieces.

There are 27 messages in this topic.