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Crag & Route Beta

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VIC Northwest	Camel's Hump	(General)	(General)	[ Camels Hump Guide \| Images ]

Author

Retrobolted anchors - Witch and Wishful Thinking

dave_s

8-Dec-2018
2:07:44 PM

Copying info from Facebook Melbourne Rock Climbing group: Someone has bolted anchors (just hangers, nothing you could rappel from) above Witch and Wishful Thinking. Overwhelming consensus is that these are completely inappropriate and should be chopped, however in the interests of not starting a bolting war, I think they should be left in long enough to allow a chance for the person who installed them to be found. So if the person who installed these bolts sees this, could you please come forward. The person who made the post on Facebook indicated that they would remove the hangers ASAP, while leaving the bolt studs, and return the hangers to you once identified.

The Rock Robster

8-Dec-2018
3:16:36 PM

Forgive my ignorance but whereabouts is this?

JDB

8-Dec-2018
3:55:52 PM

Camel’s Hump, Victoria


rodw

10-Dec-2018
10:51:17 AM

Can you reach them from the top...only reason I could see for explaining installation is you reach over setup a quick top rope? Even if that the case that setup is just dumb.


phillipivan

10-Dec-2018
7:24:15 PM

Easy to access from the top with ample natural gear options.


Miguel75

10-Dec-2018
8:28:53 PM

On 10-Dec-2018 phillipivan wrote:
>Easy to access from the top with ample natural gear options.

PI is on it; easy access with plenty of natural gear. These bolts are dumb!


Chloe

10-Dec-2018
9:58:35 PM

On 10-Dec-2018 rodw wrote:
>Can you reach them from the top...only reason I could see for explaining
>installation is you reach over setup a quick top rope? Even if that the
>case that setup is just dumb.

I’m not defending the bolts so please remove them, but am ignorant of why the setup is dumb if it has redundancy.
Can you please elaborate rodw?

dalai

10-Dec-2018
10:46:52 PM

On 10-Dec-2018 Chloe wrote:

>why the setup is dumb if it has redundancy.

Issue other than being totally unnecessary (so many easy to find natural anchors used by everyone the last 55 years prior to the retrobolt!) is that anchors on the face below the top shouldn't be regular hangers.

An anchor unless easily reached from the top as questioned by Rodw should be able to have the rope threaded, as top anchors placed below the lip are usually intended to be used as loweroffs. This would be dangerous to do with these hangers.


E. Wells

11-Dec-2018
3:47:29 AM

Yeah sorry , it was me. Feel free to remove all hangers and return them to me. I will be passing through Mexico early Jan for my hangers. Cheers. In the meantime a few twisted shackles would turn them into a loweroff. Like almost every other climber , i didnt want to fork out the 12 bucks. Like i said , feel free to remove these, and all other bolts at Kamils Lump.


rodw

11-Dec-2018
3:51:34 AM

On 10-Dec-2018 Chloe wrote:

>I’m not defending the bolts so please remove them, but am ignorant of
>why the setup is dumb if it has redundancy.
>Can you please elaborate rodw?

Dalai pretty much summed it up.

dalai

11-Dec-2018
6:02:10 AM

On 11-Dec-2018 E. Wells wrote:
>Yeah sorry , it was me. Feel free to remove all hangers and return them
>to me. I will be passing through Mexico early Jan for my hangers. Cheers.

Whilst you're in the area, I could use your services on Tiptoe Ridge? Been holding off climbing this as I hear I have to place wigglies.

Seriously adding shackles would legitimise their placement. They need to be chopped!

One Day Hero

11-Dec-2018
8:35:36 PM

What are the odds on Terry?

dalai

12-Dec-2018
7:48:54 AM

Surely even Terry isn't that stupid to add loweroffs on these routes!

One Day Hero

12-Dec-2018
8:10:32 AM

Terry knows more about climbing than you, his mentors (paid alpine guides) are the only ones whose opinion he cares about. This is exactly the sort of thing he would do, but I'd have expected ringbolts.

JDB

12-Dec-2018
8:34:37 AM

I'm not for one moment condoning this action, but given that Omega Block is basically grid-bolted nowadays, it's hardly surprising that someone who doesn't know better (presumably) has done this. I personaly have climbed these routes many times and can confirm there is plenty of natural gear available. Ironically there is plenty of gear above Boogie, but no one is fussed with the lower off on that route. So would there be as much indignation if a lower off was installed instead of hangers?

I think this scenario should be a red flag for all climbers; as there is a huge influx of new climbers eminating from the burgeoning indoor gym industry, who are heading outdoors without a good understanding of the 'ground rules'. So how are this next generation of sport climbers going to be educated?

My 20 cents worth

dalai

12-Dec-2018
10:28:59 AM

On 12-Dec-2018 JDB wrote:
>Ironically there is plenty of gear above Boogie, but no one
>is fussed with the lower off on that route. So would there be as much indignation
>if a lower off was installed instead of hangers?

Already saddened Boogie went from 2 bolts when I first climbed it to how many now?

And yes still indignation by many including me if they were loweroff's rather than hangers!


Duang Daunk

12-Dec-2018
11:47:49 AM

On 12-Dec-2018 dalai wrote:
>On 12-Dec-2018 JDB wrote:
>>Ironically there is plenty of gear above Boogie, but no one
>>is fussed with the lower off on that route. So would there be as much
>indignation
>>if a lower off was installed instead of hangers?
>
>Already saddened Boogie went from 2 bolts when I first climbed it to how
>many now?
>
>And yes still indignation by many including me if they were loweroff's
>rather than hangers!

So bro, if Boogie has suffered retroing over time and presumably it wasn’t for legitimate safety reasons like having pro at a strategic location to prevent decking out? ... And you are aware of this retrofitting, why not clean that up at the same time as stubs removal off Witch?

Bro JDB also wrote:
>I think this scenario should be a red flag for all climbers; as there is a huge influx of new climbers eminating from the burgeoning indoor gym industry, who are heading outdoors without a good understanding of the 'ground rules'. So how are this next generation of sport climbers going to be educated?

They already are educated.
“Like, that gym blue route was reset tha otha day; man it’s nails now!”
Leads to...
“Going to Camels Lump to practice getting stronger outdoors, but that Boogie Route is a bit gnarled and could do with a reset!!”

gfdonc

12-Dec-2018
12:03:24 PM

On 12-Dec-2018 JDB wrote:

>I think this scenario should be a red flag for all climbers; as there
>is a huge influx of new climbers eminating from the burgeoning indoor gym
>industry, who are heading outdoors without a good understanding of the
>'ground rules'. So how are this next generation of sport climbers going
>to be educated?
>
>My 20 cents worth

Yah well I'll see your 20c and raise yuh ..
There are 3 issues stemming from this attempt at insightful commentary.

1. Lack of mentorship of the 'next generation'. It's been lamented that an implicit mentorship programme to transfer knowledge around has somehow not been perpetuated. So there are lots of gym climbers around lacking a means to transition to outdoor, trad climbing. Some of them just go bouldering instead.

2. What's considered sensible is changing. There are dozens if not hundreds of examples around where poorly protected routes were established in the 70s and 80s 'cos that's the way it was done back then'. Some of those FA's are revising their once-proud ethics, either by fixing their errors of the past, getting someone else to fix it for them, or just putting up well-bolted sport routes as an attempt at moral retribution.

3. What's considered offensive is changing. Ten years ago there would have been a rush to chop those bolts as soon as they appeared; now we're having a debate on it which isn't completely one-sided.

There ya go, I'll step back now. Let the games begin...


Duang Daunk

12-Dec-2018
12:08:00 PM

On 11-Dec-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>What are the odds on Terry?

Yeah, nah.
My money is on longer odds of the Gangster dude that got towed up Neverest, since (as you know), it / all the good stuff, starts on Facelook.


tufa_humpa

12-Dec-2018
8:48:49 PM

Hey ODH, fancy heading south? Do you still have any of those DCV t-shirts?
We're just downhill. Happy to help and get E. Wells' hardware back to her.

There are 41 messages in this topic.