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THE AUSTRALIAN RE, RETRO-BOLTING OPEN FORUM 16-Apr-2004 At 11:42:50 AM Tel

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Ok I read BA's ewbanks post and I can understand it easily enough.

** XI 30m 18
A bold undertaking up an exhilarating wall. RP's are essential if you want to adequately protect the lower wall. Start near toe of buttress and climb moderate ground with poor pro. Committing moves then lead to base of crack in middle of wall. Up this until it peters out, then step R and continue up pockets finishing steeply. Easliy to the top. Mike Law, Peter Watson May 76.

keys words:........... my interpretation:

bold undertaking..... it is pretty scary

moderate ground..... medium to quite hard

poor pro................. just keep thinking of the sequence, dammit

committing moves.... we're not in kansas any more toto

peters out............... hail mary full of grace ...

up pockets finishing steeply.... it'll be fun my arse

easily to the top ....... do little dance..make a little love..
get down tonite, get down tonite
Suffice to say that I find the description more than adequate

the scary runout, needs to be retrobolted issue was raised in regard to Rats Alley 19, and the guide books description seems to fit with Robins' interpetation of the climb

guide book says :
just enough wires to keep you smiling

Robin says:
protection was totally adequate and there is a bomb proof #4 or #5 wall nut that can be place half way between the ground and the first bolt???

I am not a good climber at all, my experience in climbing amounts to at most 2 dozen sessions in a gym, and a total of 5 outdoors ventures since Jan this year.
grades ..well for me,
12 - 15, I should be able to it
16 - 19, I am working really hard,
20 - 23, you got to be kidding!
24 - 34?, "tell him he's dreamin'"
My point is that I think the ewbanks sytem is ok, and I don't like the idea of homogenising and pasteurising routes (retrobolting). If one of the issues is that gym climbers hitting the cliffs for the first time may end up hurt, because of grades lack of description etc, then they have just bitten off more than they can chew. On the days I have been out those that are leading always seem to start off with grades around 10 - 14 so as to warm up and become familar and get their head in the right space etc.

Climbing is based on many unwritten rules and ethics and morals, which have been passed down through each generation of climbers, some of which are now gospel. By trying clearly define or give property rights to each mode of climbing then the chances are, that it will transform into something else entirely.
Climbers tend to define climbing as a sport, why?, yes the advent of gyms has in turn created a sporting aspect, and yes Bouldering and Climbing comps do have a defined set of "rules". But climbing on the whole ?.
Is it a sport because it is strenuous?, or because it requires a degree of fitness?, or because it is outdoors?.
To me therein lies the problem, if something needs to be clearly defined it is climbing itself, not the grading system and not by trying to get cohesion from separation.
As mentioned above ' the rules' of climbing are basically moral and ethical judgements, so it can't really be a sport as there is really no rule book.
In my thinking by doing something that is based on moral and ethical grounds, I am choosing to participate in a "lifestyle". So climbing as a "lifestyle", what does this entail?, I see this as being experiences, epics, adventures and a conscious decision to adhere to the ethics set down by predecessors. For that is where the joy and appreciation come from, and that is also why we have a "climbing community". A website or a campfire where we regale one another with stories, things to do, places to climb. Sounds more like a "lifestlye" than a sport to me.

tel, whose post is very much the way he climbs.... sketching all over the place ;-)