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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 47
Author
Sport Climbing to be Prohibited in Tasmanian WHA

JamesMc
20-Jan-2015
6:31:58 PM
Here's a new one. A proposal to prohibit the establishment and maintenance of sport climbs in the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area. I'm thinking Adamsfield but there are probably others.

Quote below from the new draft management plan.


– Generally maintain the TWWHA as a traditional climbing area;
– The establishment or maintenance of routes that are protected primarily or exclusively using fxed anchors (i.e. ‘sport’ climbs) is prohibited;
– Based on historical precedence, the occasional limited installation (or replacement) of permanent anchors at Mt geryon, The Acropolis, Frenchmans Cap and Mt Anne is permitted;
– Written authority must be obtained from the pWS before using power-driven equipment to install or replace any permanent anchor in the TWWHA;
– Limited use of permanent abseil anchors for canyoning activities may be approved by the pWs, subject to site-specifc considerations

dpipwe.tas.gov.au/conservation/tasmanian-wilderness-world-heritage-area/new-tasmanian-wilderness-world-heritage-area-management-plan

James Mc
johny
21-Jan-2015
7:56:12 AM
It boggles my mind how much energy these people spend micro-managing a non-issue such as bolts in WHA. This kind of mountain out of molehill style regulation is an obvious example why the liberals have come in and just said get rid of the whole WHA idea altogether.


nmonteith
21-Jan-2015
9:23:16 AM
Is Lake Huntley/Tyndalls in the in the World Heritage Area?
OozeDumbHopeless
21-Jan-2015
9:37:24 AM
What is more visually offensive, a bolt or this thing:
http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/files/2014/06/walking-tasmania.jpg
gfdonc
21-Jan-2015
10:57:50 AM
On 21/01/2015 OozeDumbHopeless wrote:
>What is more visually offensive, a bolt or this thing:
>http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/files/2014/06/walking-tasmania.jpg

I think I see your point, although you're comparing two completely different things.

Boardwalks are visually more impactful, yes, but they prevent unsightly erosion and help hikers avoid getting muddy feet.

Bolts are less visually intrusive but only help stop people falling off and dying, hence are less important.

Nerm
21-Jan-2015
11:47:23 AM
On 21/01/2015 nmonteith wrote:
>Is Lake Huntley/Tyndalls in the in the World Heritage Area?

No (its in a conservation area), neither is Adamsfield (forestry land).

The main areas in the TWWHA are:
• Cradle Mountain
• Devil’s Gullet
• Federation Peak
• Frenchmans Cap
• Mt Anne
• Mt Blackwood Summit
• Mt Field
• Mt Geryon and the Acropolis
• Precipitous Bluff
• Sentinel Range
• Western Arthurs

NB the wording in the draft plan was after some negotiation with the CCT to allow some anchors at these locations

As john said bolts to a large extent are not the biggest issue and not something to get hung up on - its way more important in the scheme of things that the plan says climbing is recognised as a valid recreational activity and allowed at all WHA locations (which is not a given).

nmonteith
21-Jan-2015
12:01:28 PM
Actually seems a very sensible rule considering the cliffs involved are to the most part totally bolt free.
johny
21-Jan-2015
1:22:23 PM
On 21/01/2015 nmonteith wrote:
>Actually seems a very sensible rule considering the cliffs involved are
>to the most part totally bolt free.

I am not in favor of bolting everywhere but your statement is nonsense. By this logic, any area that has no bolts should never have bolts. Hmmmm... How would one go about bolting any new area then?

nmonteith
21-Jan-2015
1:38:22 PM
On 21/01/2015 johny wrote:
>On 21/01/2015 nmonteith wrote:
>>Actually seems a very sensible rule considering the cliffs involved are
>>to the most part totally bolt free.
>
>I am not in favor of bolting everywhere but your statement is nonsense.
>By this logic, any area that has no bolts should never have bolts. Hmmmm...
>How would one go about bolting any new area then?

Or you could just climb routes without placing bolts? The sport we are involved in is called 'Climbing' not 'Bolting.'. I think it is a nice idea to have some areas free of bolts, especially wilderness areas that involve multi-hour/day walks to get to them.

shiltz
21-Jan-2015
2:20:31 PM
If their objective is to minimize new tracks into remote cliffs and minimize damage to vegetation around the bases of those cliffs then I can see their logic...
Sport routes take away the need to carry a heavy rack, make the climbing safer/easier, and the net result is generally a whole lot more traffic. What percentage of climbers will regularly walk for an hour or more carrying a full trad rack to climb on a remote cliff where they have to find the route based on a description rather than a line of bolts? And what percentage would prefer to walk less than an hour carrying a sport rack to a cliff that has nice photo topos in a phone App?
OK duckboards have a greater visual impact than bolts but they achieve the purpose of keeping the majority of walking traffic on the track.
BBSR
21-Jan-2015
2:25:40 PM
Thanks for the update James.

I'm not familiar with the area, so can only comment in general terms.

I think that to have sport climbs prohibited under the plan may not be the ideal in terms of meeting the stated goals of the management plan. In the value of 'Presentation' at the beginning of the document, it speaks of a need to consider current and future needs, and I think that we could better meet these needs by defining a process under which future new bolting might be evaluated. Not sure exactly what this would look like, but perhaps not entirely different from the RAA (Reserve Activity Assessment). In many ways I think this speaks to the theme of some of the other statements, which show that there is an understanding that bolts can be in the best interests of the goals in some areas, but not others.
Damo666
21-Jan-2015
3:32:18 PM
On 21/01/2015 Nerm wrote:
>
>NB the wording in the draft plan was after some negotiation with the CCT
>to allow some anchors at these locations
>
>... its way more important in the scheme of things
>that the plan says climbing is recognised as a valid recreational activity
>and allowed at all WHA locations (which is not a given).

+1 definitely, both for these areas and as a precedent for elsewhere.

Good to see the CCT having effective input, too, thanks.
johny
21-Jan-2015
4:15:18 PM
So climbs with bolts arent climbs? Do you draw the line at anchors or any fixed gear on route or just "bolts"? This is also a nonsensical statement. You never place bolts or climb bolted routes? Right...

So you think its "nice" if there are areas free of bolts. Ok this is the first thing you said that makes any sense. I think its good that some areas are gear only. Almost always, bolted anchors are necessary or you just end up with a bunch of crap that people rap off of or force dangerous eroding decents. Also hand drilling a couple bolts while new routeing ground up is about as "trad" as you can get (trad climbing being a completely bullshit made-up term by the way) but this would apparently require the permission of some fat ass bureaucrat now. Glad you approve.

You and Damo are just trying on your little "trad" hat. I hope you think it looks good on you for the moment. Have fun on your next sport climb.

>Or you could just climb routes without placing bolts? The sport we are
>involved in is called 'Climbing' not 'Bolting.'. I think it is a nice idea
>to have some areas free of bolts, especially wilderness areas that involve
>multi-hour/day walks to get to them.

The good Dr
21-Jan-2015
5:06:01 PM
Actually CJ, from the snippets provided the wording is:

– Written authority must be obtained from the pWS before using power-driven equipment to install or replace any permanent anchor in the TWWHA;

Note - power driven, so tap-tap-tap away with that hand drill.

PS. Totally agree that 'Trad climbing' is a bullshit term, made up after Choinard wrote his article about 'clean climbing' which essentially reflected various movements that were emerging around the world. Traditionally climbing used fixed protection.
kieranl
21-Jan-2015
5:10:03 PM
On 21/01/2015 johny wrote:

>So you think its "nice" if there are areas free of bolts. Ok this is the
>first thing you said that makes any sense. I think its good that some areas
>are gear only. Almost always, bolted anchors are necessary or you just
>end up with a bunch of crap that people rap off of or force dangerous eroding
>decents. Also hand drilling a couple bolts while new routeing ground up
>is about as "trad" as you can get (trad climbing being a completely bullshit
>made-up term by the way) but this would apparently require the permission
>of some fat ass bureaucrat now. Glad you approve.

If James' OP is correct "occasional" hand-drilled anchors on climbs don't require approval but approval is required to use a power-drill or to place permanent anchors for canyoning. Does it make sense to slice-and-dice that way? I've no problem with the power-drill restrictions, not that I'm qualified to have an opinion as I've probably done my last climb in the Tassie WHA, but canyoners might find the need to get permission a bit discriminatory.
BBSR
21-Jan-2015
5:36:24 PM

> Do you draw the line at anchors or any
>fixed gear on route or just "bolts"?
snip
> Almost always, bolted anchors are necessary or you just
>end up with a bunch of crap that people rap off of or force dangerous eroding
>decents.

I think they might understand this consideration, as they have said 'protected primarily or exclusively using fixed anchors' rather than simply 'protected using fixed anchors'.

"– The establishment or maintenance of routes that are protected primarily or exclusively using fxed anchors (i.e. ‘sport’ climbs) is prohibited;"

Sensible walk offs can exist to get back to the base, or sometimes cliffs are able accessed from the top, rap in on gear, climb out (like Pt Perp).

sbm
21-Jan-2015
5:49:23 PM
I like the US approach - just disallow power tools. If you find a sport line that really is a hyper classic, go nuts, a few days of hammering must be worth it.

Also if we're talking about impacts on Tasmania wilderness, let's keep in in perspective...how about all the drilling and bolting that holds together the dams that have destroyed, and continue to disfigure massive swathes of this world heritage area.
Damo666
21-Jan-2015
7:13:04 PM
On 21/01/2015 The good Dr wrote:
>...t 'Trad climbing' is a bullshit term, made up after
>Choinard wrote his article about 'clean climbing' which essentially reflected
>various movements that were emerging around the world.

Nah...

Chouinard's seminal article was in the 1972 Patagonia catalogue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_climbing
https://signalvnoise.com/posts/2776-on-writing-the-1972-chouinard-catalog-that-changed-a-business-and-climbing-forever

'Trad' had nothing to do with that, it was not used until years later, well into the 80s and was not popular in Australia until the 90s when many more routes became bolted as sport climbs, hence the need for a differentiation.
Plenty of definitions around:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_climbing
http://www.climbing.com/skill/climbing-dictionary/
http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/traditional-climbing-basics.html
Ithomas
21-Jan-2015
8:51:19 PM
Actually, the article cited is in the 1972 Chouinard Equipment Catalogue. Patagonia (Chouinard's clothing company) was not formed until 1973. The seminal article about clean climbing was written by Doug Robinson not Chouinard. Glad I got that off my chest. In comparison to the latest proposals by the Tasmanian government to open up the WHA for tourist development, any curtailing of activity by climbers seems like small bikkies. On the other hand, I would hate to hear a power drill anywhere where I was walking or climbing, in or out of the WHA.
johny
22-Jan-2015
10:26:22 AM
On 21/01/2015 Ithomas wrote:
>Actually, the article cited is in the 1972 Chouinard Equipment Catalogue.
>Patagonia (Chouinard's clothing company) was not formed until 1973. The
>seminal article about clean climbing was written by Doug Robinson not Chouinard.
>Glad I got that off my chest. In comparison to the latest proposals by
>the Tasmanian government to open up the WHA for tourist development, any
>curtailing of activity by climbers seems like small bikkies. On the other
>hand, I would hate to hear a power drill anywhere where I was walking or
>climbing, in or out of the WHA.

Yep couldnt agree more. It might seem like I am nit-picking here but I love Tassie WHA. I think its disgraceful that energy has been put into regulating climbers and bolts in WHA which is like .0001 of activity in the area when the govt. is looking to open it up for logging. Parks put your energy into something else!

As far as bolting on lead. Thanks Dr. for pointing that out to me. My analogy was bogus. It does seem that they are only against power drills.

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