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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Poll Option Votes Graph
Clip belay loop 66
81% 
Clip into waistbelt and legloops 15
19% 

 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 82
Author
clip belay loop or harness?

tnd
4/02/2009
11:53:27 AM
On 4/02/2009 skip-skip wrote:
>...I was back jumping a route in Nowra, to clean it, taking hard falls....

Repeatedly over a short period subjecting harness and rope to high load in that manner is hardly a sensible climbing practice. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
Richard Delaney
4/02/2009
12:02:44 PM
On 18/12/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>... My daisy chain (which is permanently larks footed through leg
>loops and waist belt) came with the
>recommendation not to clip through two loops, as the 2 bar tacks can rip
>and then you'll be floating free,

Eduardo, I think this makes reference to:

where the stitching is being pulled apart under load.

Brings up another good point though, many people clip their biner simply through the
end of their daisy and then, to shorten it, clip also through another 'rung'. This creates
the same potential for 'unzipping' to the end and coming off which is why another
practice is to 'larks foot' the biner on in the first place:


Richard


westie
4/02/2009
1:27:28 PM
On 10/12/2008 mikl law wrote:
>Though all the harness manufacturers tell us to clip the belay loop (it's
>twice as strong as the rest of the harness I understand), I see a lot of
>people clipping into both loops of the harness (when my last harness got
>very tatty I did this).

When leading I tie into the leg loop and waistband - when belaying I clip into the belay loop and when seconding I tie as with leading. Am I wrong here? How is this up for debate? (sorry pushed for time)

D.Lodge
4/02/2009
1:38:27 PM
No Westie you are perfectly right just some people do it the wrong more dangerous way of clipping the biner through the leg and waist loops where you tie in.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
4/02/2009
2:07:30 PM
It is not necessarily 'wrong' to do it that way depending on the harness* involved, as some are/were designed for that usage.
(*Like the early BD Alpine Bod harness).

Eduardo Slabofvic
4/02/2009
2:20:25 PM
On 4/02/2009 Richard Delaney wrote:
>Eduardo, I think this makes reference to:
>
>where the stitching is being pulled apart under load.
>

Yes and no, as to load the two bartacks as shown on your photo, one end would need to be anchored (moste likely the biner) with a weight (the person) on the other end. The loading of the daisy chain makes a straight line between anchor and person .

For the biner to rip as shown in your photo, the both ends of the daisy chain would need to be anchored, with a third weight then loading across the stiching.

I wasn't really questioning the daisy chain, and I agree with the second part of your post, I was just pointing out that most load bearing components (like quickdraws and harnesses load points) have multiple bartacks. Most draws will have 4 or so.

I actually use the same harness as shown having a ripped leg loop, earlier in the thread. That photo clearly shows 2 bartacks on the belay loop. And my take home point here is, 1 manufacturer says don't trust just two bartacks, whilst anther says go right ahead.

What I do question is the three way load scenario, as I have been making observations when belaying and rapping and I have found that the majority of the weight is on the leg loops (which incidentally, is supported by the ripping photo above), and with leg loop and waist belt sinched together by the larks foot of my daisy chain, and my current harness being the first one I've ever used that even has a belay loop, and having held 1000s of falls and done 100s of rappels clipping through waist belt and leg loops (NB I tie in through waist belt and leg loops as well) leads me to reject the belay loop.

I also prefer Pepsi to Coke; and I say "tomato", and not "tomato".

IdratherbeclimbingM9
4/02/2009
2:37:09 PM
>For the biner to rip as shown in your photo, the both ends of the daisy chain would need to be anchored, with a third weight then loading across the stiching.

I think the original post was referring to 'short clipping' a daisy with its end krab to achieve desired tension to a stance. It results in a cross pocket kind of clip that can tear bar tacks from 'end on' rather than 'side on' as shown in the pic. The result is the same ~> you are free to fly, unless the end krab is also girth hitched as RD post shows.

I find it easier to simply use a second krab to short clip a daisy to achieve desired tension.

Eduardo Slabofvic
5/02/2009
12:40:07 PM
On 4/02/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>It results in a cross pocket kind of clip that can tear bar tacks from 'end on' rather than 'side
>on' as shown in the pic. The result is the same ~> you are free to fly,
>unless the end krab is also girth hitched as RD post shows.

Agreed. So the take home message is two bartacks can rip.
dave
5/02/2009
9:37:39 PM
I started a thread about the daisy chain thing a while ago

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=6&MessageID=3403&Replies=1

Surely the 2 bar tacks on a belay loop are not comparable to the 2 on a daisy? I have often noticed while fully hanging on a daisy that the stitching starts to pull apart alarmingly- none of it actually comes undone- but on 1st glance it often looks like the tack is coming apart. From memory the daisy 2-bar tacks are only good to 3kN so obviously the way they do them on belay loops must be different.

ajfclark
5/02/2009
10:21:09 PM
On 5/02/2009 dave wrote:
>so obviously the way they do them on belay loops must be different.

I think it's more that the way the force is transferred to the bar tacks is different.
dave
6/02/2009
8:04:11 AM
Yeah I think thats part of it- theyre never getting pulled apart on a belay loop. also the tape is a lot thicker. Still seems like a big difference in strength.

Eduardo Slabofvic
6/02/2009
9:25:50 AM
On 5/02/2009 dave wrote:
>Surely the 2 bar tacks on a belay loop are not comparable to the 2 on
>a daisy? I have often noticed while fully hanging on a daisy that the stitching
>starts to pull apart alarmingly- none of it actually comes undone- but
>on 1st glance it often looks like the tack is coming apart. From memory
>the daisy 2-bar tacks are only good to 3kN so obviously the way they do
>them on belay loops must be different.

I agree, they are different, but even the daisy chain has 4 or so bartacks at the join, which is the place
you should assume is the only one that holds.

This thread is a survey on who clips into the belay loop and who doesn't. There appear to be 12 other
people out there who share my view, and 50 or so who don't. Great, whatever. I've put forward the reasons
why I don't use it, and every body else can (and should) make up their own minds, and not be
brainwashed by the design response to fear of litigation.
hero
6/02/2009
9:35:24 AM
I'm with Eduardo on this.

Anyone who is not paranoid lacks imagination.

Regardless of the supposed forces I prefer to be through as many things as possible.

pmonks
6/02/2009
10:35:11 AM
On 6/02/2009 hero wrote:
>Regardless of the supposed forces I prefer to be through as many things
>as possible.

Following on from this thought, does anyone tie-in through both the waist and leg loops *and* the belay loop? I'd never seen that done before, but seems somewhat common over here in seppo land (somewhat common == I've seen enough people doing it to have noticed, but by no means a majority).

Seems like adding the belay loop into the bight wouldn't add anything - if the leg and waist loops fail the belay loop is a goner too - but maybe there's some other reason?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
6/02/2009
10:39:04 AM
Seems like overkill to me. If waist or legloop failed the belay loop is only a redundancy of the remainder. I would think it would also tend to twist the belay loop into a non-preferred alignment for some belay devices as well.




MrsM10iswhereitsat.
6/02/2009
10:47:32 AM
On 6/02/2009 Mr hero wrote:
>I'm with Eduardo on this.
>
>Anyone who is not paranoid lacks imagination.

You are both paranoid?

>Regardless of the supposed forces I prefer to be through as many things
>as possible.

I wager that you start feeling naked when you break down a belay and are only left clipped into a minimal remaining piece before moving off the belay.
Am I right Mr hero?
hero
6/02/2009
11:30:59 AM
I feel naked when I'm clipped into 4 big ring bolts. But that's OK, I like to feel naked, in fact , I'm ....

MrsM10iswhereitsat.
6/02/2009
12:24:18 PM
On 6/02/2009 Mr hero wrote:
>I feel naked when I'm clipped into 4 big ring bolts. But that's OK, I like
>to feel naked, in fact , I'm ....

into bondage?
hero
6/02/2009
4:12:56 PM
no, into badinage

but given the gothic king size bed that you and Derek frolic on I can see how you might have associated my mention of 4 big ring bolts with bondage, or at least Derek's heavily pierced knob ...
Richard Delaney
6/02/2009
4:32:23 PM
I've just had a look through the 6 harnesses I've got here in the shed and the two with 2
bartacks (both Petzl) are not simply bar-tacked and that's it. On closer inspection, and
forgive my dodgy artwork, they are put together like this:

So, one piece of tape with a complete extra round turn and then bar-tacked through
three layers. Added to this, it's stitched right through all the way around on both sides.
In my favour again is that any loading works to increase the friction within the round
turn. Lastly, this oppositional loading is a very different mode to the 'tear-apart' loading I
attempted to indicate above.

All in all, given that I inspect my harness before each fitting, I'm completely happy with
belaying off my belay loop and tie-ing in through waist and legs as per the instructions.
The manufacturers recommend this method for the simple reason (as already shown by
another poster) that karabiners can and have failed when loaded across the gate by rigid
devices.



 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 82
There are 82 messages in this topic.

 

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