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Daisy Chain Failure

dave

30-Jun-2006
9:37:50 AM

I was just looking through the Black Diamond catalogue and discovered something interesting about daisy chains. I have always known that you shouldnt clip a carabiner through 2 pockets like this:

however as Black Diamond show on this video
http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html
clipping the end pocket and another pocket further up is also dangerous. like this:

I've always done this thinking that the end pocket is full strength (ie. not just rated to body weight like the others pockets). It is but only if another pocket is not clipped also.
Aparently u should do this:

ps. im a bit worried about their daisy chain made with sticky tape!

just a few interesting facts i thought...


nmonteith

30-Jun-2006
9:49:10 AM

Ekk! Good link Dave. I've also been doing this in the past... although i usually have a rope clipped into
the system as well as a backup (with a few metres of slack).

Andaroo

30-Jun-2006
9:57:29 AM

Hey Dave,

Interesting.. I bought the Metolious PAS (personal Anchor system) its awesome, just the right length and because its all loops, folds up nicely on your harness.
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas.htm

Cheers

dave

30-Jun-2006
10:17:48 AM

Yeah the Metolius one is a good solution. Pretty expensive though...
Its only a matter of time before they make normal daisy chains with full strength pockets i think

dave

30-Jun-2006
10:19:58 AM

Hmm just realised after posting those photos that i have a pink daisy chain and a pink biner. How embarresing!

ademmert

30-Jun-2006
10:40:52 AM

A question:
what if you unclip the main loop and only clip into one of the smaller loops??
not as shown in the first picture, but just through one loop.

dave

30-Jun-2006
10:53:29 AM

then each bar tack will rip but ur left with the whole sling still in the biner so its ok. any comments?

Fool in the Rain

30-Jun-2006
11:17:46 AM

It depends on what you're using the daisy chain for. As I undestand they are designed for aiding (hence the body weight only rating) and therefore should only be used for aiding.

Any riping of pockets will shock load anchors/harness.

IMO they should never be used as part of a belay set up.

gfdonc

30-Jun-2006
11:32:43 AM

Some daisys (daisies?) have a full rating on every loop, saw it somewhere but don't recall who makes them.

I only use daisys for aiding, and for a ground-belay sometimes, but I seem to be in the minority as several people I climb with use them for clipping in. Instead, I usually tie myself off on the main rope at a suitable length, and perhaps clip a spare quickdraw if I need to shorten the distance slightly.

I would assume that ripping through one of the intermediate loops would damage the integrity of the sling.


nmonteith

30-Jun-2006
12:00:57 PM

On 30/06/2006 Fool in the Rain wrote:
>Any riping of pockets will shock load anchors/harness.
>IMO they should never be used as part of a belay set up.

I dont' think it would shockload the anchor that badly - as its working pretty much like a large scale
Screamer device (ie every pocket that rips is some force distrubted and removed from the system). By
the time it gets down to the main sling there would be a much less force on the anchor than the original
fall. It would be frightening to watch but quite safe i imagine. I've had daisy chain pockets rip open in a
normal day to day aiding enviroment (ie 20cm fall directly onto daisy chain)

James

30-Jun-2006
12:38:03 PM

what kind of dodgy daisy chains are people using? the individual loops on mine are rated to 5kn (so ~500kg static load) & overall 15kn (static load ~1500kg).. I use daisy's as my primary safety all the time. Surely it would be most unusual to load it more than this.

I have a screamer that starts ripping from 2kn - I've used this as normal runner (& have taken lead falls on it) & its never ripped...


nmonteith

30-Jun-2006
12:42:10 PM

On 30/06/2006 James wrote:
>I have a screamer that starts ripping from 2kn - I've used this as normal
>runner (& have taken lead falls on it) & its never ripped...

Thats actually quite interesting information James! Can you tell us the scenario of the biggest fall that
didn't pop the screamer? (ie height from belayer, height above piece of gear etc).

I had a friend fall from 4m above an RP2 the other day (on Amnesty International). It held. It was his first
ever trad fall. He was totally unfazed! :-o

James

30-Jun-2006
12:51:07 PM

> Can you tell us the
>scenario of the biggest fall that
>didn't pop the screamer? (ie height from belayer, height above piece of
>gear etc).

it was ages ago, so can't remember exactly, maybe 3-4m fall from 15-20m up the pitch. so very soft fall, not much more than a slump really.

screamers would be more likely to rip when there is little rope out - other friends of mine have ripped them aiding multi-pitch routes, 2-3m above the belay & falling past the belay.

PS: I've seen #3 RPs take 8-9m falls fine


gordoste

30-Jun-2006
2:36:29 PM

On 30/06/2006 James wrote:
>PS: I've seen #3 RPs take 8-9m falls fine

When the video of Dave McLeod climbing Rhapsody comes out, you'll be able to see 20m falls onto RPs!!!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=198


nmonteith

30-Jun-2006
2:52:37 PM

On 30/06/2006 James wrote:
>PS: I've seen #3 RPs take 8-9m falls fine

Is that 9m fall from ABOVE the RP - or a total distance for the fall?

James

30-Jun-2006
3:00:43 PM

On 30/06/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>On 30/06/2006 James wrote:
>>PS: I've seen #3 RPs take 8-9m falls fine
>
>Is that 9m fall from ABOVE the RP - or a total distance for the fall?

total distance of the fall. I was belaying a friend on Future Tense @ Frog (not Cam's monster whipper, that was another one :)...


Phil Box

3-Jul-2006
8:58:47 AM

No climber should ever put themselves in a position where they could fall onto a spectra daisy chain directly on to the anchor. Very bad things could happen. We were recording huge loads from mere slumps of 50mm. More to come on all of these tests.

James

3-Jul-2006
9:04:35 AM

hey Phil - is that just for spectra daisy chains? are standard nylon daisy's any different?

I really only use a daisy as part of a belay when I'm anchored using daisy (usually with a loose quickdraw or rope backup), & then belay a second direct off my harness. & I only do this when I have a very secure place to sit (ie very very very unlikely that I can be moved in case of a fall).


Phil Box

3-Jul-2006
1:04:31 PM

Spectra daisys are very very static and thus less able to absorb the shock loading of a fall. It is all about the time it takes to decelerate. Nylon will decelerate over a longer period of time. The dynamic climbing rope is by far the best thing to tie in with. By and large I am leaving my daisys behind now and trying to incorporate my climbing rope into the belay and the personal anchor point. If I need to clip myself in and deal with the rope in any scenario then I only ever hang static on whatever I clip into. It is a bad bad thing to climb above your anchor whilst clipped in with spectra. Factor 2 on spectra will definitely break something, it may be the anchor or your harness or you but something will break.

Edit to fix a smelling pistake.

Ronny

3-Jul-2006
5:14:05 PM

The reason this is dodgy is that if you rip open all of the small bar tacks between the two loops that the biner is clipped to you are not clipped into the sling that's left. These tacks are not as strong as normal sling stitching because there's usually only one of them, and also because when you weight them you're pulling the stitches apart, rather than a sort of 'shear' force on normal sown slings. (Don't know if this angle thing makes that much difference with stitching - it makes a large difference with swages on wire rope).

This won't happen if you just give the daisy a couple of twists (or just one will do) before clipping the higher loop. If you do that and break all the stitching then you are still clipped into the resulting sling. This might be unsafe though in practice because with the clusterf*ck at a belay it might be difficult to tell whether you'd actually put the twists in or not.

J

There are 27 messages in this topic.