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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 3 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 79
Author
My very first ground fall.
mikllaw
12/05/2010
12:12:11 PM
On 12/05/2010 egosan wrote:
>Really? Wow. In know I really shouldn't be flippant, but Mikl, how did
>you come to that conclusion?
No really, people seem to think that falling is ok, terrifies me to watch sometimes. And the last place you want to fall is easy ledgy trad, or close to the deck

>We have all seen Neil's ground fall video. Another fabulous example of
>what not to do.
I haven't seen it, but it sounds like the old single runner theory to me.
Nic Taylor used to put in a single piece and say "If that comes out i deserve to die. He was leading Judas at Mt piddington and kicked the Jesus nut out as he went by, I didn't tell him till he'd finished the crux move

sarah gara
12/05/2010
12:46:20 PM
On 11/05/2010 mattjr wrote:
>
>It's funny you should mention doubles Mikl, all I have seen Sol climb
>on at Araps since he bought his doubles are.. his doubles. What were you
>doing climbing on Andrews single Sol? Don't you know those things are dangerous?!

Don't you mean sol's doubles are dangerous. That's why I asked - very glad you were on andrew's single - otherwise would have been so much worse -those doubles are dangerous (not all doubles I like them in general) far too stretchy.

I won't climb with Sol's double ropes again

At Black range I fell on 2nd on those ropes with no slack in system and fell a long way -not too far off ground much further than I should have gone not good that they stretch that much. When Phil fell too on those ropes on lead - you told me he went 7m -which i bet was due to those ropes - too stretchy. not good. booo to Sol's doubles. x

mattjr
12/05/2010
12:51:04 PM
On 12/05/2010 sarah gara wrote:
>On 11/05/2010 mattjr wrote:
>>
>>It's funny you should mention doubles Mikl, all I have seen Sol climb
>>on at Araps since he bought his doubles are.. his doubles. What were
>you
>>doing climbing on Andrews single Sol? Don't you know those things are
>dangerous?!
>
>Don't you mean sol's doubles are dangerous. That's why I asked - very
>glad you were on andrew's single - otherwise would have been so much worse
>-those doubles are dangerous (not all doubles I like them in general) far
>too stretchy.
>
>I won't climb with Sol's double ropes again
>
>At Black range I fell on 2nd on those ropes with no slack in system and
>fell a long way -not too far off ground much further than I should have
>gone not good that they stretch that much. When Phil fell too on those
>ropes on lead - you told me he went 7m -which i bet was due to those ropes
>- too stretchy. not good. booo to Sol's doubles. x

What brand/model are the ropes in question Egosan?

ajfclark
12/05/2010
1:23:39 PM
On 12/05/2010 mikllaw wrote:
>I haven't seen it, but it sounds like the old single runner theory to me.

Actually two runners, though from reading Neil's comments at least one was suspect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8NqgeN8qUs
egosan
12/05/2010
3:04:59 PM
http://www.edelrid.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=548&Itemid=741

Edelrid Apus 7.8

Rope Type: Half/Twin
Weight per Meter: 42g
Sheath Proportion: 33%
Number of Falls: 8/20
Impact Force: 6.7/10.3kN
Dynamic Elongation: 29/27%
Static Elongation: 9.2/6.4%
Sheath Slippage: 0

But that don't mean a thing I was on Andrew's grotty old single.

>No really, people seem to think that falling is ok, terrifies
>me to watch sometimes. And the last place you want to
>fall is easy ledgy trad, or close to the deck

No argument from me on that point Mikl. Trad close to the deck is a bad place to fall. I suspect much of the thing that terrifies you is bleed over from the world of sport climbing where dogging up routes is a common practice.


ajfclark
12/05/2010
3:11:52 PM
On 12/05/2010 egosan wrote:
>But that don't mean a thing I was on Andrew's grotty old single.

60m 10mm mammut galaxy purchased mid May 2007.
noclimberboys
12/05/2010
4:20:26 PM
I think simey makes a good point here.

>When I am so pumped that I can't think straight, I use the few brain cells still receiving oxygen to >place more gear instead of rushing the next move and hoping for the best.

>The reality is that if you want to climb harder routes you need to learn to place gear in strenuous >situations and shake-out effectively. Taking a silly risk to get up some intermediate route is not going to help you in the long term to climb harder routes safely.

And MiklLaw also makes a good point.
>One other thing, it's not a gym; you shouldn't be falling off unexpectedly. Particularly not on crap >gear

Egosan's response...
>Really? Wow. In know I really shouldn't be flippant, but Mikl, how did you come to that conclusion?

>We have all seen Neil's ground fall video. Another fabulous example of what not to do. What >about you Mikl? What hard lessons are you going to share with us?

and
>No argument from me on that point Mikl. Trad close to the deck is a bad place to fall. I suspect >much of the thing that terrifies you is bleeding over from the world of sport climbing where >dogging up routes is a common practice.

Does anyone else get a hint of ego in Egosan's tone? The irony...

My personal opinion, is that taking ground falls shouldn't be considered a right of passage and something that every climber goes through. It's something to be avoided.

Reading between the lines, if you lead The Rack with difficulty and then took a ground fall from a grade 16 climb then maybe you should be concentrating on climbing grades below that and concentrate on learning to place *really* good gear in an situation that isn't taxing. Once you've mastered that then you might start testing your good gear placement abilities in more strenuous situations.

And on another note - What is your perception of your current ability? And what is the actual reality of your ability? Maybe you need to ask people you climb with? Are you dangerous, reckless or did you just have a lapse of focus? Or were you trying to impress some woman (trust me - flailing around on a climb and then taking a grounder on an intermediate route is not the way forward)? You need an honest friend to assess these and give you feedback... since Simey's and MiklLaw's (two very knowledgeable people) advice is not held in high regard.
egosan
12/05/2010
5:57:06 PM
On 12/05/2010 noclimberboys wrote:
>I think simey makes a good point here.
>
>>When I am so pumped that I can't think straight, I use the few brain
>>cells still receiving oxygen to place more gear instead of rushing the
>>next move and hoping for the best. The reality is that if you want to
>>climb harder routes you need to learn to place gear in strenuous
>>situations and shake-out effectively. Taking a silly risk to get up
>>some intermediate route is not going to help you in the long term
>>to climb harder routes safely.

'Tis a fine point, however I am not sure how it applies to my fall on Crucifixion or my failure on The Rack. In one case I was in no way pumped and in the other I had with my last working brain cells placed the piece that held my epic slump.

>And MiklLaw also makes a good point.
>
>>One other thing, it's not a gym; you shouldn't be falling off unexpectedly.
>>Particularly not on crap gear
>
>Egosan's response...
>>Really? Wow. In know I really shouldn't be flippant, but Mikl, how did
>>you come to that conclusion?
>>We have all seen Neil's ground fall video. Another fabulous example of
>>what not to do. What about you Mikl? What hard lessons are you going to
>>share with us?

Did my exasperation and resulting sarcasm not come through clearly enough. I could have said, "No shit, Sherlock." Regardless of the should and should not of falling, I did unexpectedly and on crappy gear. Of course we should not fall and most definitely not fall on crap gear. That is the moral of my little tale, is it not?

>and
>>No argument from me on that point Mikl. Trad close to the deck is a bad
>>place to fall. I suspect much of the thing that terrifies you is bleeding
>>over from the world of sport climbing where dogging up routes is a common
>>practice.

The is in response to Mikl's follow up post:

"No really, people seem to think that falling is ok, terrifies me to watch sometimes. And the last place you want to fall is easy ledgy trad, or close to the deck"

He clarifies that he wasn't just stating the obvious and, hell, I agree with him. I even go further to suggest that this phenomenon is not without precedent.

>Does anyone else get a hint of ego in Egosan's tone? The irony...

That's Mr. Ego to you.

>My personal opinion, is that taking ground falls shouldn't be considered
>a right of passage and something that every climber goes through. It's
>something to be avoided.

I whole heartedly agree. I started this thread with thought somebody might take a lesson from my mistake and avoid having their own.

>Reading between the lines, if you lead The Rack with difficulty and then
>took a ground fall from a grade 16 climb then maybe you should be concentrating
>on climbing grades below that and concentrate on learning to place *really*
>good gear in an situation that isn't taxing. Once you've mastered that
>then you might start testing your good gear placement abilities in more
>strenuous situations.

Once again, the mental error I made on Crucifixion was from a good stance where taxing did not come into it at all. Without any mitigation I am left defenseless. I made a horrible decision and was very lucky in the outcome.

>And on another note - What is your perception of your current ability?
>And what is the actual reality of your ability? Maybe you need to ask people
>you climb with? Are you dangerous, reckless or did you just have a lapse
>of focus?

Dangerousness, recklessness, and safeness are all very subjective ideas. I will have to defer to my climbing partners on that one. I climb, I must therefore think I am a safe climber.

>Or were you trying to impress some woman (trust me - flailing
>around on a climb and then taking a grounder on an intermediate route is
>not the way forward)?

A fair question given my current state as I sit here mournfully listening to Tom Waits. Nope, It was a sausage sizzle. Which in my personal experience can be much more dangerous than a coed crowd where a little estrogen can go a long way to dampening the effect of testosterone on the brain.

>You need an honest friend to assess these and give
>you feedback... since Simey's and MiklLaw's (two very knowledgeable people)
>advice is not held in high regard.

I have a great deal of respect for both Simon and Michael. I have picked up every bread crumb from Simon's cornucopia of wisdom here on Chocky and in person. Michael I only know through Chocky and I consider his posts on climbing and gear with high regard.

Thank you for your criticism, noclimberboys. I feel honored that the author of the climbing = dating? thread commented here on my modest thread. There is only a little friendly sarcasm in that last statement.

Are you still single? Want to grab a coffee sometime?

Cheers,
Sol
Wendy
12/05/2010
9:46:13 PM

>At Black range I fell on 2nd on those ropes with no slack in system and
>fell a long way -not too far off ground much further than I should have
>gone not good that they stretch that much. When Phil fell too on those
>ropes on lead - you told me he went 7m -which i bet was due to those ropes
>- too stretchy. not good. booo to Sol's doubles. x

>Edelrid Apus 7.8

>Rope Type: Half/Twin
Weight per Meter: 42g
Sheath Proportion: 33%
Number of Falls: 8/20
Impact Force: 6.7/10.3kN
Dynamic Elongation: 29/27%
Static Elongation: 9.2/6.4%
Sheath Slippage: 0

I think they sound very dangerous ropes. Obviously far to skinny to be in the hands of a strapping young man like Sol. Much better that some little person uses them. I'll happily take those risky things out of his hands ...

Seriously, these are the stats on a fat edelrid:

Edelrid Harrier 10mm x 60m Dry Rope Specs
Specification

Description
Weight 67 grams per meter
Dimensions 10mm x 60m
Dry treatment Dry core and sheath
Impact force 9 kilonewtons
UIAA falls 8 - 9
Dynamic elongation 31 percent
Static elongation 8.4 percent

They apparantly stretch even more. Which I admit defies experience a little bit, falling on a lone skinny rope is quite bouncy. But I'm not sure how much the stretchiness of the ropes are a problem as much as unfamiliarity with such skinny ropes - they can slip more in a belay device and be harder to hold falls with due to decreased friction, esp if you have a standard belay device - they weren't designed for such skinny ropes back in the dark ages.
egosan
12/05/2010
11:53:04 PM
I keep a couple spare Reversinos with my rack. You are right, a plain ol' 11mm belay plate doesn't slow 'em down real quick.
simey
13/05/2010
12:55:29 AM
On 12/05/2010 Wendy wrote:
>Edelrid Harrier 10mm x 60m Dry Rope Specs
>Specification
>
>Description
>Weight 67 grams per meter
>Dimensions 10mm x 60m
>Dry treatment Dry core and sheath
>Impact force 9 kilonewtons
>UIAA falls 8 - 9
>Dynamic elongation 31 percent
>Static elongation 8.4 percent
>
>They apparantly stretch even more.

Don't quote me on this, but I'm under the impression that twin and double ropes are tested slightly differently to single ropes. I suspect the testing takes into account that often two ropes are absorbing the fall hence the reduced elongation.

ajfclark
13/05/2010
7:36:58 AM
That matches my recollection too Simey. From memory doubles are tested with a 55kg weight and singles with 80kg, Will go digging later.
widewetandslippery
13/05/2010
8:08:45 AM
On 12/05/2010 noclimberboys wrote:

>
>Reading between the lines, if you lead The Rack with difficulty and then
>took a ground fall from a grade 16 climb then maybe you should be concentrating
>on climbing grades below that and concentrate on learning to place *really*
>good gear in an situation that isn't taxing. Once you've mastered that
>then you might start testing your good gear placement abilities in more
>strenuous situations.
>
>And on another note - What is your perception of your current ability?
>And what is the actual reality of your ability? Maybe you need to ask people
>you climb with? Are you dangerous, reckless or did you just have a lapse
>of focus? Or were you trying to impress some woman (trust me - flailing
>around on a climb and then taking a grounder on an intermediate route is
>not the way forward)? You need an honest friend to assess these and give
>you feedback... since Simey's and MiklLaw's (two very knowledgeable people)
>advice is not held in high regard.

egosan I think you should dismiss the above as something written by someone who wants the world to be safe and peaceful and that the wreckless be shackled.

I found the use of "intermediate route" sanctimonious.
prb
13/05/2010
10:35:21 AM
One thing's for sure, there's nothing like a lead fall and getting a bit hurt to get you thinking about how you go about things. And what climbs you should be able to get up safely and successfully.

Most of the really serious accidents at Arapiles seem to be be in the 10-16 grade range. Admittedly, that covers many of the most popular climbs.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/05/2010
11:28:45 AM
On 09/05/2010 egosan wrote:
>I pulled up into the fist jamBs. I pulled out a cam and put it in my teeth. While switching hands to place my big number four, I slipped.
&
>Ignoring that voice that says, "Hmmm. That might be marginal," as I fiddled with that hex in was the mistake. I could have put another piece in. I could have fiddled with it some more. Instead, I thought, "Good enough," and headed up. Doom on me.

Hmm.
Glad you are relatively OK egosan, and thanks for posting your experience so that others can learn from it.
Many posts to this thread have offered sound advice (particularly simey and mikl), and to add my 2c to that mix here are a couple of my thoughts after reading your feedback.
For onsighting I find it good practise to place gear even when I don’t think it necessary. This is because I have sometimes sandbagged myself into thinking there is good rest/gear placement opportunity higher, and it turns out not to be so, ... with a resultant long runout!
This is very dependant on your head-space at the time, and will vary from climb to climb / day to day, depending on your prior experience.
One of the scary aspects of lead climbing is that even apparently good gear can strip, let alone the marginal pieces. After judging the worth of any placement, if there is any doubt about its integrity, then back it up, or back off to another day, as the climb will still be there waiting for you...

Did you really need to switch hands to make the placement?
Being ambidextrous is not a sin! Hehx 3

Hmm again.
Hey egosan, you sure this whole thing is not just a ploy to get a date with noclimberboys?
Heh, heh, heh.
... and does this throw any new light onto trusting thin gear on aid for you?


On 11/05/2010 ambyeok wrote:
> Theres also downclimbing and resting on the gear.
&
>>On 11/05/2010 simey wrote:
>How will resting on the gear help you climb harder routes?

>Twas a joke. But it seems to help M9.

Heh,heh,heh. Good one ambyeok.

Although said in jest, there is actually a grain of truth within that joke. If the climbing is sufficiently hard that you get into the practice of taking a slump onto gear, or otherwise deliberately resting on it, you can find that it was not as secure as you thought and end up taking an unexpected downwards ride with it as a consequence. This may not be first go, but can be some time after the initial ‘rest’ event.
... ~> can happen often during relatively thin aid!
mikllaw
13/05/2010
12:59:55 PM
As ones need for gear increases, ones ability to place it efficiently and restfully plummets, So when you are in a relative rest position, place a nest of gear (possibly equalised) so you can either run it out, or stop and fiddle with backup.

Learn to place gear efficiently, the best way is aid some cracks while top rope belay solo (grigri or tied in at intervals)
prb
13/05/2010
1:21:40 PM
On 13/05/2010 widewetandslippery wrote:

>...you should dismiss the above as something written by someone who wants the world to be safe and peaceful and that the wreckless be shackled

If you're reckless, you're probably not going to be wreckless!
Paz
13/05/2010
1:43:15 PM
On 12/05/2010 noclimberboys wrote:
>I think simey makes a good point here.
>
>>When I am so pumped that I can't think straight, I use the few brain
>cells still receiving oxygen to >place more gear instead of rushing the
>next move and hoping for the best.
>
>>The reality is that if you want to climb harder routes you need to learn
>to place gear in strenuous >situations and shake-out effectively. Taking
>a silly risk to get up some intermediate route is not going to help you
>in the long term to climb harder routes safely.

>
>And MiklLaw also makes a good point.
>>One other thing, it's not a gym; you shouldn't be falling off unexpectedly.
>Particularly not on crap >gear
>
>Egosan's response...
>>Really? Wow. In know I really shouldn't be flippant, but Mikl, how did
>you come to that conclusion?
>
>>We have all seen Neil's ground fall video. Another fabulous example of
>what not to do. What >about you Mikl? What hard lessons are you going to
>share with us?
>
>and
>>No argument from me on that point Mikl. Trad close to the deck is a bad
>place to fall. I suspect >much of the thing that terrifies you is bleeding
>over from the world of sport climbing where >dogging up routes is a common
>practice.
>
>Does anyone else get a hint of ego in Egosan's tone? The irony...


Did anyone else throw up a little at the lameness of the above comment....
>
>My personal opinion, is that taking ground falls shouldn't be considered
>a right of passage and something that every climber goes through. It's
>something to be avoided.

Really!!! tell us more wise Sensai.....
>
>Reading between the lines, if you lead The Rack with difficulty and then
>took a ground fall from a grade 16 climb then maybe you should be concentrating
>on climbing grades below that and concentrate on learning to place *really*
>good gear in an situation that isn't taxing. Once you've mastered that
>then you might start testing your good gear placement abilities in more
>strenuous situations.
>

why preface your comments with such ignorant remarks like, "in my personal opinion" and "on another note"....of course it's your opinion, you're writing the drivel....

....
>And on another note - What is your perception of your current ability?
>And what is the actual reality of your ability? Maybe you need to ask people
>you climb with? Are you dangerous, reckless or did you just have a lapse
>of focus? Or were you trying to impress some woman (trust me - flailing
>around on a climb and then taking a grounder on an intermediate route is
>not the way forward)? You need an honest friend to assess these and give
>you feedback... since Simey's and MiklLaw's (two very knowledgeable people)
>advice is not held in high regard.

I don't think I'd like you noclimberboys......I imagine you'd be selfcentred and absolutely full of yourself....prancing around the campground with couple of pigtails talking lame shi*t to whoever is unfortunate enough to have to listen about the ways people should really impress women and consolidate at least 200 climbs of the same grade before moving on and even then with only the written permission of 5 individuals who you trust to give you a completely indifferent opinion....fukc that....why not just climbing in a fukcing gym....


grades are a guide....... of course egosan knew all the sh*t that's been suggested in this topic...the reality is it's a different story when you're actually climbing, your mind can spend ages being paranoid about a piece of pro, and you can also get far to careless when placing pro on routes that are below your limit....
this mental fight is what makes trad climbing so fukcing addictive....
I'm sorry I don't hold your advice in "high regard"....

ajfclark
13/05/2010
2:02:39 PM
On 13/05/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>That matches my recollection too Simey. From memory doubles are tested with a 55kg weight and singles with 80kg, Will go digging later.

On page 29 Mammut's Seil book says:
A weight of 80 kg (with single and twin ropes) or 55 kg (with half ropes) falls on a single cord (single and half ropes) or doubled cord (twin ropes). Single and half ropes must withstand at least 5 standard falls, a doubled twin rope at least 12. Single ropes, which hold 5-9 standard falls, are designated as standard fall ropes, those with more than 9 falls are designated multi-fall ropes.
rolsen1
13/05/2010
2:22:08 PM
When I first read this thread I immediately thought of egosan having a big go at me recently on chocky for suggesting that learning to lead safely is something that takes a great deal of time (can't be bothered finding the thread and linking). At the time egosan suggested leading on trad isn't rocket science, and people like me are over cautious, maybe he'd voice a different opinion now, maybe not.

I am also reminded of the young guys in tassie who also decked out this year (also can't be bothered finding the thread), admittedly their injuries were more severe but they appear to have been more open to suggestions about how they may go about making sure similar incidents don't happen to them again.

Having said that, sometimes stuff happens.

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