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Author

When is a project open?

Kurt

4-Nov-2004
12:16:34 AM

There is a great deal of bolted routes around with a bit of red string through the first bolt, that don't look like they have seen chalk or any form of action... are these routes up for grabs?


mousey

4-Nov-2004
3:42:27 AM

id say thats a, ummmm, NO!!


shiltz

4-Nov-2004
7:53:59 AM

Go for it. The red tap is an invitation. It means, "I haven't managed to climb this because it is a bit hard, maybe you could show me how".


alrob

4-Nov-2004
8:19:34 AM

I thought that the red tape was put there by a generous trad climber, who has noted the bolts existence as a retro, thus red taping it for removal later.......


jackie

4-Nov-2004
8:47:13 AM

On 4/11/2004 alrob wrote:
>I thought that the red tape was put there but a generous trad climber,
>who has noted the bolts existence as a retro, thus red taping it for removal
>later.......

Haha!


nmonteith

4-Nov-2004
3:17:42 PM

The only way to find out if the project is open is to ask the climber who bolted it. If you can't track him down then find a friend or ask on this forum (if its in Victoria).


Megan

4-Nov-2004
7:32:16 PM

.. him?


nmonteith

4-Nov-2004
7:55:34 PM

or her.... them then.

mikl law

5-Nov-2004
1:35:21 AM

I use the 4 year rule, it gives people enuff time to try something seriously, get injured recover, and try it again, meet a girl, revoer, and try again. Lots of my projects have been given away or snitched. So what.

The only thing about projects is- assume they didn't know how or where to bolt.

Good luck


Robb

5-Nov-2004
9:34:10 AM

nice work neil. only back a couple of days and you are posting like caged lion. sounds like the trip went well. nice pics.

Neil C

5-Nov-2004
10:56:36 AM

In my opinion, i view no project as closed. I only stay offf them for diplomatic reasons. Why does the apllication of bolts render a climber ownership of the cliff. Frankly it's rubbish. What if i had tried a route on sketchy natural gear and come back a month later to find a ring bolted sport route with a red tag. What happens then. The whole idea of first accents has been inherited from mountaineering. The pride of the fact that you were the first person up. Almost a race if you will. Closed projects take this idea but make it a one man race. A selfish ego trip. But it's a lot of hard work and money? the punters cry. Yes it is. But how many other peoples bolted routes have you climbed. You should be putting something back. Projects on trad lines are a race and can not be owned. The sport climber chain of thought has dribbled into bouldering as well. How can you own a boulder problem? "i brushed it up." Piss off. Everyone likes to harp on about how they don't care about grades. Their not in it for the ego. Well what is it with first accents. Why does that not make you feel good other than fueling your ego.


nmonteith

5-Nov-2004
11:02:56 AM

This has been discussed at extreme length previously...

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=3926&Replies=1


Robb

5-Nov-2004
11:24:25 AM

first ascents are good fun. having a go at some previously unclimbed line is great. if you put the effort in to a bit of brushing and bolting effort (which can sometimes be substantial), maybe you get a bit of priority. people can either respect it or not. if someone climbs your project before u, so what, its just a climb!. no point crying over spilled milk.
having projects for 4 or more years though is a little ridiculous. personally i couldnt be bothered in investing that much time in a piece of rock. one the other hand, there is alot of rock out there, usually plenty to do without offending someone by getting on their newly bolted project, especially if they have asked you not to.
doing new routes for me is a it like putting something back into climbing and seeing people enjoy a new route is quite cool.

there was a strange case in adelaide a few years back, where a link up of some existing routes was being attempted by some of the resident strongmen. the link up was a cool line, but it was just that "a link up". one of these guys (who is quite infamous in australian climbing circles shall remain anonymous) claimed he had thought of the link up and therefore it was his "intellectual property". another climber beat him to the FA by about 24 hours and Mr IP still claimed the FA. it was quite an amusing spectacle for all observers.
remember - enjoy the climbing!


rodw

5-Nov-2004
11:35:31 AM

Not meant as an attack or anything Neil C, but have you ever put up a sport route?

Actually bolting a sport route isn't fun, its hard work, scoping route, cleaning it, equipping it etc etc. Not to mention the crap you possibly can get from people that climb it later saying, "bolts to close" , "bolts to far apart" blah blah blah, and now you be-grudge someone the only really incentive of putting up the route in, climbing it first and naming it, after all that work? Bah-hum-bug Mr Scrooge:)

I generally find your type of comment more from poeple who are not actively developing or ever put up a sport route, could be wrong though.

I


IdratherbeclimbingM9

5-Nov-2004
11:35:42 AM

3 years 277 days to go.
3 years 276 days ...
... and counting down!

What if someone saw the red string the day before you did?
Be a bummer to wait that long and miss it by 24 hours if they got back 1st!

Ahh, its a strange game (Sport?)climbers (only ??) play sometimes !


elmo_lives

5-Nov-2004
3:51:55 PM

It would be good if the red tape system worked. It would reflect on an honest climbing community. If people stole climbs, bolters would resort to much more extreme measures than red string. When Paddy Pallin and Mountain Designs are selling the brand new Petzl red padlock, for all your F.A bolting needs, we will know were we went wrong. The four-year rule is generous though. I like that.

dalai

5-Nov-2004
4:06:56 PM

One instance in Australia, a truck tire was padlocked with a chain to a bolt in a effort to keep people off the project.

A Kinsley (UK) project I recall had saucepans padlocked to bolts also!!

I am sure many more efforts such as these have been used to keep the lazy bottom feeders from stealing others hard work...

climberman

5-Nov-2004
4:07:59 PM

Surely 'tis open when the bolter says "It's open", or dies, or something similar.

Australia is blessed with such an absurd amount of unclimbed rock that route and project pinching is just lame.

A5 - think "Craig the Janitor 21" at Gardens of Stone for a gear route under the same scenario. Which reminds me, has anyone heard of Richard the Pom/Talking Richard/Richard Rogers recently ? I know he left Oz for NZ years ago, but would love to ring him up and soot the shit. Onsight ?


mousey

5-Nov-2004
4:22:47 PM

i dont think its up to anyone to sya 'right you've been on it long enough, now its open'
the person should stand aside and give it away or make it open after that long, since it should be obvious they aren't going to be able to do it, but if they choose to keep working it then thats their choice- if you choose observe ethics then those ethics should extend to such a situation. if it's abandoned and they have no intention of climbing it but still keep it after all those years then f--- em and climb it without their bolts, claim it as a variant.


shaggy

5-Nov-2004
5:39:04 PM

I would have to say I agree with Neil C, but also understand the etics involved, and respect that. There are only a couple of ways that this system doesn't work. If someone see's a good line and quickly bolts it, yet doesn't have the nessisary skill or ability to climb it, he could be on it for years and never have the skill to climb it, therefore this is selfish. Another way is if the line is/has been attempted on trad, and yet someone bolts it and claims it as their project. Take Mr Natural at araps, it's completely clean, but nearly wasn't. If someone jumped on that climb and bolted it, should they own the right to the first accent? I think not, in fact I think that if anyone ever wants to, attempt a line that is a sport project, on gear, go for it (as long as it's not a 'sport' area). At the end of the line, if it's a sports area, first accent rights work (within reason, I think 4 years is too long), and if it's a mixed area, free for all if you want to do it on gear (again though, respect it if someone is currently working on it).

There are 43 messages in this topic.