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Open Projects ??


..::- Chris -::..

29-Sep-2003
12:02:37 PM

I was chatting to a climber in NSW a while ago who was telling me about a route he bolted years ago at (arapiles) and has never been back to give it a go....

This conversation sparked the debate of climbing projects in my mind...
.
Interested to see what peoples opinions are on Projects ?? How long (if at all??) can one person keep a line on a cliff to themselves before opening it to the rest of the field to have a go ?? (6 months, a year, 4 years or as long as it takes ??)

If there is a bit of tattered red string on a bolt, however it also happens to be covered in moss and or spider webs and looks as if it hasn't been touched in 2+ years, is it "OK" to clean it and give it a go ??

I have never climbed someone else's project nor do I intend on it, I'm just curious as to other people opinions on this matter....

joemor

29-Sep-2003
12:06:28 PM

i think you should leave it untill its abandoned by the who ever bolted it


trent

29-Sep-2003
12:20:12 PM

We bolted three new lines in the Watagans, near Newcastle, NSW. They were only easy at 17 and 18 but they were nice lines on good rock. We glued the bolts in, put some cord on the first bolt of each and left a note at the bottom saying do not climb. Three weeks later we returned to do the FA and the cord was removed and someone had written on the note "why?...they were great". i asked around and it turns out that heaps of people that sport climb dont know what a piece of tape or cord on a bolt means.


nmonteith

29-Sep-2003
1:00:51 PM

Simple - ask the guy who bolted it. If he says it is ok - then go for it. There is plenty of unclimbed and unattempted rock out there. You might as well find your own 'project' before stealing others. We have plenty of rock in Australia.


nmonteith

29-Sep-2003
1:03:28 PM

If you see red tape or cord on the start of a route there is a BIG chance it has un-finished, un-glued bolts on it. It is exteremyl dangeorus to attempt the route. If my drill goes flat - or i run out of glue then i tag the project and walk away. I might no get back for several months.


..::- Chris -::..

29-Sep-2003
1:12:20 PM

My above question just to clarify was "hypothetical", i have not come across any red tape, nor do I intend on steeling projects, this was just a question to help spark some thought and opinion.

Also just to clarify Neil, How do you know who bolted a climb ?? Should the person perhaps leave some details attached ?? Whats your opinion ??

Dalai

29-Sep-2003
1:20:08 PM

It's unfortunate when projects are stolen. Equiping routes takes time and money, routes stolen will only potentially stop the people putting in the effort from doing so in the future.
As climbing is still a small enough community, only a little work is needed most times to find who equiped the climb and then ask them whether they are still attempting the route. A little courtesy goes a long way.
I had a project stolen quite a while back on Spurt wall - I would have been quite fine giving it away if asked, annoyed though that they just went ahead and stole it.


nmonteith

29-Sep-2003
3:33:20 PM

This website is the perfect way of discovering a project's 'status'. There is a wide cross section of the community posting here. Talking about projects... there is still two tagged lines on the grey wall directly under VD Land in the Gramps. Anyone know if these are still active projects? The tags are faded and there is no evidence of chalk. The routes don't look that great - vertical grey crimpers.


Donut King

30-Sep-2003
12:00:51 AM

bloody good topic chris!

I disagree with the majority of thought so far in this thread.
A piece of rock, bolts or no bolts, cant be reserved like a library book.
Sure it takes time to equip routes but there has to be a reasonable timeframe for working a new route. Cant just put a bit of tat and say "route reserved", so piss-off its mine.

if you want to be sure that know one does "your route" then put padlacks on the first few bolts, make sure they fit the plate completely, that way you can lock out all the unworthy scum until you're good enough to do it!

Or perhaps we can see a repeat of the dummy spit (not the first mind you!) some time ago with the smashed holds and suncream...get over it...

from the talk hear, i could go out bolt a route and maintain a monolpoly over IT until such time that *I* see fit to *give* it to others...you really have to be joking.

equipping a route gives *no-right* to its first ascent, or attempts until *I* see fit.

Sure, we love all you super energetic people that have the time/resources/inclination to bolt routes, but how long does every one else have to wait...who is going to provide the definition of "reasonable time"?

I would say that I have *never knowingly* climbed someone elses project, but when routes go sitting "vacent" for extended periods i have little sympathy for those who have overestimated their ability, or do not have the reasoning to give up what is inherently not theirs to begin with.

Great pride is placed in finding/developing new routes (for whatever reason) and people are very finiky about who climbed what route first, so why not have a "project register or database" to keep track of all this sort of whoo-ha, with a 4 month maximum? Bring on the Project Administrators!!!

peace out


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
9:30:29 AM

Donut King - your attitude annoys me! - Some of my routes have taken over three days to bolt - and cost me a small fortune in bolts, petrol, time ect to prepare. I would be livid if somesone decided i had no 'right' to tick the route in my own time. YOu woudl be gettign the bill from me for hundreds of dollors!


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
9:33:30 AM

Donut King,
Your comments will spark this topic going, I agree but perhaps with a slightly longer extent on giving it ago, I beleive "up to" 1 year is "reasonable" after that it's time to admit defeat...... However i didn't start this post to preach, just mearly to gather opinions on the topic. Thankyou for your comments, I to agree there should be a Project database, such that we get the most out of the good rock we have.

Whats peoples thoughts of a project database, perhaps maintained by either the VCC (grampians araps) and for Nowra Bluey's Bluemoutains climbing club ?? With all the bolting that goes on up NSW perhaps there is something already in place ?? An unspoken law or pehaps something organized ???
Also keen to here peoples thoughts on how long you can own a project for ?? What is reasonable ??


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
10:16:33 AM

Projects are generally at semi secret areas. A lot of people won't add information to the proposed database. It is simple - if it is tagged - then leave it alone! One year is way too short. Nick spent close to two years before he ticked The Compressor Route (27) at Centurion. He was activly working it the entire time.

What routes are people taking as examples of projects that are tagged but not being worked??? I am sure i coudl tell them if it is ok to attempt it with a little research. Unless you are willing to put the hard yards into bolting your own routes - stay off others! How is this for an idea - I will happily bolt new routes for others - for a price. Good bolts cost minimum $7 each. Add on a few dollors for my time and we could arrange a deal.


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
10:56:00 AM

So Neil, just to some it up...

- If you bolt a route (ie invest the 3 or so days and $$) you own that line of the cliff until;
a. You complete the route (however long it may take)
b. Decide the route is too hard and make it an open project.
c. This is the same for a populated areas as well as new or remote ??

I've never put up a sport route, however I have abseiled down cliffs with wire brushes and cleaned trad routes and I understand the effort involved, In one particular instance I had trouble doing one of the moves and didn't finish the climb, so did that mean i had the right to leave a note on the cliff, please do not climb as I haven't finished with this piece of rock yet I spent a good day brushing crap off the holds, went through a brush and lost some skin off my knuckles....??

Neil this topic is not directed at you, we are trying to form some opinions, to which everyone is entitled too (an opinion), No one is saying it's OK to steel a route.

In the future when areas around the Grampians are populated with climbs (perhaps not tomorrow) but in the future, and new routes aren't 20 mins walk in every direction, people will fight for new routes, and a fair etiquette should be in place. I'd be interested to see if i bolted a new route (sport 26) in France and tried to work it for 2 years.... saying it wasn't in a new or remote area, I'd be lucky to have it for the weekend....

Should there be different rules for putting up a route in an already developed area over a remote area ??


shiltz

30-Sep-2003
10:57:53 AM

There are hundreds of routes to do in the Grampians. Why would you want to climb somebody else's project? If you want to climb a new route then go and find one. There is endless potential for those with the desire. I don't think anybody goes to the effort of bolting a route just to keep others off it.


climbau

30-Sep-2003
11:01:34 AM

Donut King,
Have you ever bolted a route? It is hard work, and I for one would be upset if someone decided that 4months (or any other time frame) was long enough for me to have a fair shot and proceeded to claim open slather. Personally, just being asked would be enough to make me consider handing the project over (I am currently deciding wether to pass on a project that i may not get to for a couple of years due to circumstances unforseen at the time of bolting). As Neil and Dalai have stated, It's all about courtesy.


haskell

30-Sep-2003
11:15:18 AM

Why would you have to 'steal' someone elses route there is a lifetimes worth of unclimbed rocked around. Not to mention the 1000's of already established lines. Does it really matter if it stakes someone 2 days or 5 years to climb something that they have concieved of there is plenty more to keep the masses occupied while this is done.

The equipered had the vision and drive to establish the route in the first place and as such they deserve the opportunity to have the first accent regardless of the time it takes them to do it, unless they walk away and declare open slather on it.

As for not knowing what denotes a project such as tape or cord attached to the 1st bolt/pro its just a sign of the times, indoor climbers moving into the outdoors without going through the 'traditional channels', it's just lack of education. And how do you educate people who think they know everything, or have no-one to ask or just don't care.


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
11:46:18 AM

I disagree "NO BODY OWNS THE ROCK" unless it's in your backyard, but as respect and etiquete are a big part of climbers and climbing, it is etiquete to leave routes with a string on them for the first assencionist. I beleive there should be a time limit (set as an approx if anything) on how long you should work a project, but i beleive given that there are no rules, no means of registering a new project, when you try and add a new route to a populated area, your infinite time limit will be expired by a sh1t hot 18 year old who onsights your route in around 5 minutes and doesn't even break a sweat, because we seem to be laying down an etiquete that is "un-reasonable"...... Life ownership "In theory" of rock given the placement of a few bolts....

This is good news for climbers, because, a petrol drill, some ring bolts, a 4x4 and anyone (who can abseil and hold a drill) can actually go and purchase rock in the grampians or wherever ....

It's like borrowing a book from the library except the due date is whenever you feel like it...

So now we've got sport sorted out.......

What about new trad routes ??


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
12:15:13 PM

I think you miss the point Chris. Once the project has been completed it is 'given' to the rest of the community to enjoy for years to come. It is not like i 'own' all my new routes and don't let people climb them!

mikl law

30-Sep-2003
12:17:03 PM

I usually think 3 years is plenty of time. It's enough time to try something, injure yourself very badly, recover, get strong, and do it.

I end up giving away lots of my projects anyway (it's very cathartic).

It's better that someone bolt something that is an insane struggle for them and very satisfying if they finally get it, than have someone flash it for just another 24 tick.

There are a lot of projects "owned " by bolting novices which require a bit of fixing before use. And often you "know" that they will never get up them. Because they are bolting novices, the route was major struggle to bolt, so the emotional investment is higher.

But I still think 3 years is fair. I won't take someone's project, I will try and talk them into giving it away,and I'm cool if someone takes one of mine after 3 years.
Mikl


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
12:26:33 PM

This is a quote from a Tasmanian Climbing site.

members.iinet.net.au/~kparkyn/craglets/ climbing_new_routes.htm

"Doing a bit of development work on a route doesn't give you exclusive rights in perpetuity. I don't know of any specific time limits but reasonable behaviour usually prevails; if you're not either doing work on a route, or showing progress towards getting up it, after a decent time then declare it open. When a route becomes "open" it's free for anyone to have a go; climbs are not tradeable commodities. "

"Climbs are not tradeable commodities"

Mike's comments are the most "reasonable" that I've read so far...

Mike is 3 years an unspoken time around NSW, set by climbers ??

There are 68 messages in this topic.