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General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 39
11:02:51 AM

11:21:42 AM
On 26/05/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>I see a lot of people at crags doing routes:
>Aways ironic when someone does a route in this way and then pronounces
>"That was never 20-whatever, it was only 20-whatever minus 1".
I seldom see people at cliffs, and less often see this practice, though I will take your word for it.
Sad really, as the adventure is lacking (often) in climbing these days.
Perhaps when they 'graduate' to trad or aid, (etc), things might change?

11:23:54 AM
Isn't there already 120 replies in this topic?

11:27:32 AM
I agree but EF was bored, so I helped out!
Maybe he could re-lable the thread 'Bored of ethics'?

12:28:15 PM
All grades are relative. Hence as long as you consider all climbs from the same viewpoint there are really just two circumstances when this would be important. One is when converting to another grading system, and the other is if there is a particular bit of info or a particularly tricky bit of gear to arrange that results in an unusually large diff between redpoint or onsight for a particular climb.

so to sum up....I don't really know. :)
10:36:15 PM

In regard to your specific question, Australian grades are onsight grades not redpoint as is the case in France. There was an interesting article somewhat related to this in a copy of On The Edge (UK) last year discussing sport climbing tactics. A route grade en France assumes you know the sequence, any hidden holds, rests etc. etc. So with this in mind a French 7a will most likely seem harder than an Aussie 24/5.
The inherant discrepancy between the two grading systems, and the often practiced tactics that are creeping into Australian climbing (as you have described), perhaps go a long way to explain why there is so much more debate and conjecture as to what is the real grade of climb xyz? Understanding the history and background to each system helps keep the whole thing in perspective. Rationalising climbs, as seems to be the creeping trend undermines the inherant strength and simplicity of the Australian system.

2:04:23 AM
Kieran, I dissagree. Surely routes in the high 20's, low 30's are not graded in terms of an onsight ascent??
10:53:45 PM
On 29/05/2004 phil_nev wrote:
>Kieran, I dissagree. Surely routes in the high 20's, low 30's are not graded
>in terms of an onsight ascent??

I'm a bit confused. I haven't contributed to this thread yet. Is this a reply to a pst in another thread?
Just to clear things up, the Australian grades should be interpreted in conjunction with the original route description and the biography of the first ascentionist. The grade is sometimes the on-sight grade of the climb but at other times is a number picked out of a hat.

4:36:23 PM
Appoligies Kieran, my mistake. I was actualy refering to CJ's comments.
9:30:45 PM
In terms of grading here in Oz, I think its the first acentionists job to assess a routes grade in terms of a climber reading the guide, fronting up and doing the route ground up (on-sight), regardless of the number . Many may disagree with me on this, I believe this is the way, historically climbs have been established here in Oz.
An example may be HB's route Serpentine. Graded 31 by Malcolm but subsequently downgraded (rationalised) to 29. Why? Because most people probably use pre placed gear, pre inspection and other tactics to do the route, rather than a ground up ,placing all gear on lead style as Malcolm did on the 1st ascent (and writing the grade / description for a similar style of ascent).

What are others opinions on grading of first ascents... onsight or redpoint grade???

6:35:24 AM
I just know from exp[erience its hard to grade a first ascent, I always am willing for my grade to be revised as I think grades should be a group effort as everyone has there own strengths and weekness's and generally the average grade poeple give it is the best.

In saying that grade should be reated to hardness of onsight, as this is what most try to achieve anyway..isn't it?
9:05:44 AM
Then why is it poms who have made an artform of toprope rehearsal of routes!? (Ben excluded .... ?)
10:08:49 AM
Add Ian Vickers to that list as well. He also came out to Oz and did an amazing list of hard onsights (as he has done in his own country)...

Comments from Ben, Ian??... Anyone?

10:18:02 AM
Shouldn't we just blame the person who created "The international grade conversion chart" :) :~

10:32:15 AM
On 26/05/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:

>UK grades are for onsight. Walking up to the route with no prior knowledge
>whatsoever, placing gear on lead.

So how does this fit into the extreme headpointing and toproping techniques used today by most top end British climbers to complete 'hard grit' routes?
12:02:43 PM
Man grades are SUBJECTIVE, just an indicator. It's up to the first ascentionest and how they climbed it, every route is different.

I have never done the first ascent of a route and then thought do I grade that for onsite or redpoint, with sport climbing it would more likely be for redpoint and then if you onsite somthing then good for you I'd say you could be solid at that grade.

As for Serpantine, I can't help myself here, the thing is bloody easy, placing gear or not, all the placements are at rests if you care to use them but it's quite safe just on the bolts. Also HB new what went where with the gear.

I think this grade was just a big mistake, the thing is 26/27 not 29 and worlds away from 31. Before you jump down my throat, I'm not the only person who believes this!!

thanks I just had to get that off my chest..

12:19:17 PM
I redpointed it as I thought it was going to be hard 29 since it was downgraded from 31, had I known it's true grade I would have had a different approach.

But I did belay Lee C on it ground up where he just missed the onsite using only the bolts.(on the 2nd pitch, he onsighted the 1st using gear)

It is a fantastic route, just not 29!
12:42:14 PM

Not meaning to jump down anyone's throat here, but is it not a case of horses for courses? Serp is more a combination of long sustained climbing with many moves around G24/5 (knowledge here from belaying Andrew L on this climb some years ago). In some cases is it not a more difficult thing to grade those routes which are sustained / endurace fests rather than routes with distinct crux sequences or section etc.
Question? Do we grade for hardest move or an overall feel? Or some sort of combination?
Again more subjectivity entering the equation here... how bout a first ascentionists strenghts / weaknesses / style - resulting in a grade intrepretation. It's obvious that there are many elements which go towards grading, not just "how our system works"!

1:03:43 PM
On 31/05/2004 CJ wrote:
>is it not a more difficult thing
>to grade those routes which are sustained / endurace fests rather than
>routes with distinct crux sequences or section etc.

Hell yes, I agree. But it's easier to undergrade than to give an accurate one - less chance of mental suffering when it's easily repeated by further ascentionists!

>Question? Do we grade for hardest move or an overall feel?

Doesn't it all come down to what's harder? Does a ten move crux at a lower grade 'feel harder' than a single cranky crux? If so then it deserves a higher grade.
1:52:44 PM
No prob asking Edward I believe the best way to describe how you did a route is not some term, but a horses mouth description.

I did Serp with the gear on, 4th shot over 2 days.

I worked the moves first shot, and then (much to my suprise) got to the last move 2nd shot but forgot my sequence Doh!

Next day I went up for a warm up shot, just bolt to bolt to warm up and then did it.

Yes that was me on Procul and yes I think that it's harder than Serp. Also I did Denim which I think was harder than both!

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