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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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Poll Option Votes Graph
Clip belay loop 66
81% 
Clip into waistbelt and legloops 15
19% 

 Page 1 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 82
Author
clip belay loop or harness?
mikl law
10/12/2008
12:48:12 PM
Though all the harness manufacturers tell us to clip the belay loop (it's twice as strong as the rest of the harness I understand), I see a lot of people clipping into both loops of the harness (when my last harness got very tatty I did this).

The issue with the belay loop is that if it fails you're a McSplat.
The issues with clipping into the harness directly are:-
-This causes a 3 way loading on the biner (can reduce strength by 50% or more)
-Grigri's can sit with the lever against the body (which was the cause of a 9m groundfall I had, the belayer badly burnt both hands so I didn't acheive terminal velocity)

tnd
10/12/2008
12:53:10 PM
I reckon use the belay loop, that's what it's designed for - tested to 30kN. If it's looking worn one should get a new harness or at least back it up with a 15cm sling through the waist/leg loops - that's what I do when bolting, which entails hanging on the harness for long periods.

evanbb
10/12/2008
1:01:20 PM
Presumably by clipping in you're referring to biners in the gym, or belaying someone? Or abseiling I suppose? In all of those cases I only clip the belay loop. If you're worried about the belay loop failing you need a new harness.

But tying in I always go through both loops

ajfclark
10/12/2008
1:03:01 PM
On 10/12/2008 mikl law wrote:
>The issue with the belay loop is that if it fails you're a McSplat.

Like Todd Skinner.

Breezy
10/12/2008
1:04:34 PM
I always have clipped only into the belay loop, thats what its there for right ?

But after the Todd Skinner incident i now have a peice of 6mm cord tied through the harness (same as belay loop) as back up.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/12/2008
1:19:14 PM
On 10/12/2008 evanbb wrote:
>Presumably by clipping in you're referring to biners in the gym, or belaying
>someone? Or abseiling I suppose? In all of those cases I only clip the
>belay loop. If you're worried about the belay loop failing you need a new
>harness.
>
>But tying in I always go through both loops

Yes; ~> ... like what evanbb wrote.
... Also depends a lot on the harness involved, as some have no belay loop while others have two!

mikl wrote;
>The issues with clipping into the harness directly are:-
>-This causes a 3 way loading on the biner (can reduce strength by 50% or more)

Not necessarily, though I agree that the potential is there for this to happen. As an example the BD Alpine Bod style of harness (if correctly fitted), allows clipping waist and legloops with a large D krab without 3 way loading. They were originally sold without a belay loop, but later models incorporated them, presumably due to popular demand for loop?
The new Metolius harness I have has very little space to clip both waist and legloops once the rope is threaded, so one or both of its belay loop/s becomes the obvious choice ...

I don't use a grigri, so no problem there.

What are you trying to find out / establish mikl? ... as I would think the majority of folk would use the belay loop as recommended by harness manufacturers.


Eduardo Slabofvic
10/12/2008
1:27:29 PM
On 10/12/2008 mikl law wrote:
>>-This causes a 3 way loading on the biner (can reduce strength by 50%
>or more)

Theoretically yes, but in practice, no, as when you load the biner the two parts (waist and leg) scrunch up into effectively 1.

Personaly I don't use the belay loop because it doesn't feel right, as the harness I have now is the first one I've ever had that has had one, so using it puts everything 90 degrees out, so it feels funny. No Sir, I don't like it.
widewetandslippery
10/12/2008
1:32:59 PM
The Todd Skinner accident was due to using a harness that should of been in the bin. If you don't trust your belay loop you should get a new harness. (do what I say not what I do).

Has anyone here used mallions as a belay loop for heavy harness wearing activities? ie aid climbing, bolting. I use them at work for rope acess but have never employed them recreationally, even have one that I always forget to throw in. Since they are stiff they perform very well in there clipablness, and stop a "softwear" part of the harness from wearing by using replacable hardwear.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/12/2008
1:42:32 PM
I have used mallions.
Don't like them although I acknowledge their strength in 3 way loading situations.
I found they undo during use unless tightened strongly (if necessary with pliers)!

I also found the screwlock on them chaffs the harness if constantly loaded/unloaded eg while jumaring a rope, and I did not like the wear on the harness that resulted.

ww&s wrote;
>The Todd Skinner accident was due to using a harness that should of been in the bin. If you don't trust your belay loop you should get a new harness. (do what I say not what I do).

Indeed ...

(From the ajfclark link higher in thread) ...

>All this, of course, begs the question, how could such a thing happen? “A normal belay loop doesn’t fail,” says Hewett emphatically. “It was totally preventable.” To wit: On October 19, while they racked up, Hewett had noticed Skinner’s leg loops looking worn out, as well as Skinner’s belay loop, which he says was “15 to 20 percent” frayed. “I very much stressed to him that that’s not good,” says Hewett. “Todd said, ‘You’re right. I’ve got a new harness on the way.’” They discussed the worn harness, talking about how people back up the belay loop with a tied sling, but neither considered it a significant safety hazard.


Phil S
10/12/2008
4:25:00 PM
On 10/12/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
On 10/12/2008 mikl law wrote:
>>-This causes a 3 way loading on the biner (can reduce strength by 50%
>or more)

>Theoretically yes, but in practice, no, as when you load the biner the two parts (waist >and leg) scrunch up into effectively 1.

Spot on Eddie. I too, at least when belaying, pass my screw-gate through my harness. I prefer the way the Gri-Gri is orientated (the rope exits right/left rather than forward/back) and I'm confortable holding the whole Gri-Gri-Biner system in it's correct position when it's not under load. I've got big hands (so I'm still in control of the tail).

I actually think that when the abseil loop is used for belaying there is as much if not more potential for 'biner cross loading because the whole system is a lot more "floppy". There is more of a "shock-laod" when the climbers' weight comes onto the system and so an opportunity for the 'biner to be loaded across its axis.

Just my oppinion. I accept that in the event of 'biner breakage I've got no case because I'm not following the manufacturers recomendations.

Eduardo Slabofvic
10/12/2008
4:41:13 PM
On 10/12/2008 Phil S wrote:
>I accept that in the event of 'biner breakage I've got
>no case because I'm not following the manufacturers recomendations.

Life is the major cause of death.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10/12/2008
6:05:24 PM
On 10/12/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Life is the major cause of death.

"When it comes time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home."
~ Tecumseh (Shawnee)
rolsen1
10/12/2008
7:47:19 PM
I changed a couple of years ago to clipping into the belay loop. Although I agree that clipping into both points "feels safer", I too think following the manufacturers instructions is the way to go.

But I also agree that the cross loading doesn't seem like a real argument if your belaying directly below the climber as you should be.

I also backup the belay loop when belaying by clipping into the rope loop, although I don't tie in when belaying a leader on the 1st pitch - far too lazy / disorganized for that.

Pat
10/12/2008
8:02:08 PM
So what stops the rope going through the belay device other than your hand?
rolsen1
10/12/2008
8:41:14 PM
On 10/12/2008 Pat wrote:
>So what stops the rope going through the belay device other than your hand?

I mean, when belaying a lead climber on the 1st pitch I clip the belay device into the belay loop only as I don't usually tie into the rope until it is my turn to climb. When belaying a second or a leader on subsequent pitches I clip into the belay loop and the rope loop which is formed by tying into my harness. The rope acts as a psychological backup to the belay loop. Make sense?
patto
11/12/2008
12:31:22 AM
When I go climbing I normally climb in a group of three for redundancy. That way I have a backup should something happen to one of my climbing parters.

Pat
11/12/2008
2:10:45 AM
On 10/12/2008 rolsen1 wrote:
Make sense?

Yep, but does that mean that on the first pitch, the rope at your end is not tied into anything?

Phil S
11/12/2008
8:51:11 AM
On 10/12/2008 rolsen1 wrote:
>... I too think following the manufacturers instructions is the way to go.

Fair 'nuff. But remember that all too often now-days manufacturers instructions don't necessarily describe
outright best practice so much as best practice for Joe-Average-Moron.

Eduardo Slabofvic
11/12/2008
9:33:28 AM
On 11/12/2008 Phil S wrote:
> so much as best practice for Joe-Average-Moron.

Yeah. Like on my new harness, the end of the waist belt is sewn back on its self so that it cannot be
passed back through the buckle, meaning that the buckle is always threaded. I have no problem with
this, but it could be a problem for people new to climbing using a harness like this and then not developing
the behaviour to back thread the buckle themselves, and then one day maybe using a different
harness............McSpat.

Teeds
11/12/2008
9:53:09 AM
For what it's worth I clip leg and waist loops.

As mentioned above, the ATC has a better orientation and feels safer. Hadn't thought about the 3 way loading, will have to look closer to see if the loops crunch up into one. Hmmm.

 Page 1 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 82
There are 82 messages in this topic.

 

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