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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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Poll Option Votes Graph
Clip belay loop 66
Clip into waistbelt and legloops 15

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 82
clip belay loop or harness?

Rock Weasel
1:11:26 PM
That Petzl diagram reminds me of an accident I saw in a previous life...

We were rapelling off the MFB tower in Richmond. I was helping out by hooking guys up and dispatching them out of the seventh story windows...Suddenly I heard a quivering voice murmur 'I think there's been an accident.' I turned to look and saw a figure-8 attached to the rope, sans rapeller. One of the guys asked, 'Where's the rapeller?' to which the guy replied 'Down there...'

I stuck my head out, expecting to see a McSplat with all the trimmings...but instead saw a dude hobbling off...After a bit of CIS-type speculation, we figured out that the guy was most likely hooked up incorrectly, and that the 8 had torqued and pinched the gate, allowing his device to slip out (there was a gouge out of the screw gate). The guy had tried to emergency brake himself, and it was only through his contact with the 11mm static rope and a solid landing on his brake man that he survived the 20 meter plunge...with a few bumps and bruises and a new-found fear of heights.

What I took from that misadventure was that gear is only useful if you employ it in the way that it was designed to perform...carabiners are not supposed to be pinched together...just as harness loops are designed for belaying and rapping...(I used to be a leg and waist loop man, but converted over to belay loop and rate it...)

Eduardo Slabofvic
1:20:11 PM
So does the Fig. 8 torque itself out of a corectly locked locking biner (which must mean a breakage of
some kind), or is it a case of gate roll out?

Rock Weasel
4:32:35 PM
The 8 twisted and pushed the gate, which was done up. A divet was gouged out of the screw gate where the key punched through as it was pinched together. The suspicion was that the guy was hooked up wrong way up (standing end below running end), but realistically the same could happen if you had things sitting in a loose ball of crap at your waist and then moved to load it without ensuring that everything is orientated correctly...Incidentally, the gate broke at about 1kn of force.
6:43:14 PM
I think something else may have been amiss with the guys gear like the biner not being screwed up, if a steel crab is screwed up I think youd be hard pressed to torque it open under the stresses involved in an abseil down a building.

Even if the key managed to "bend" the steel it sits in, under the screw it would all still be held in by the ferrule that is screwed over the top.

The thing to take away is to load everything and then check for orientation/safety before you drop!

I prefer to clip leg straps and waist band for orientation reasons. If it werent for that then I would have no probs clipping the belay loop.

8:43:06 PM
On 12/12/2008 DanNQ wrote:
>I think something else may have been amiss with the guys gear like the
>biner not being screwed up,

The way I read the Rock Weasel posts, the screw was done up but the torque force applied was enough to punch the gate through it. I have seen this happen to 'ancient style' screwgates that have aluminium 'screw sheaths', however I agree with you that it is hard to see it ever happening to a steel one during normal 'correct' use.

>The thing to take away is to load everything and then check for orientation/safety before you drop!

I prefer to check everything before loading it.
~> if you load it 1st and it fails you have just used your one chance of safety!
8:57:15 PM
Yeh that Belay Master looks worthy. I'm gonna get one. Thanks for pointing that out.
1:26:39 PM
On 12/12/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>~> if you load it 1st and it fails you have just used your one chance
>of safety!

Very true, I had my order the wrong way round! Check safety THEN load and DOUBLE check orientation...
Mike Bee
1:18:41 AM
On 11/12/2008 Phil S wrote:

>Can you explain how a 'biner is going to load the harness any differently
>to a belay loop when they are in exactly the same position and are loaded
>in exactly the same way?

It's not about incorrectly loading the harness, it's about incorrectly loading the 'biner.
The harness is rated to hold a crapload of force, way more than a normal alloy carabiner is capable of doing, even when loaded along its major axis. Both a carabiner and the belay loop will load the harness in almost exactly the same way.
The (possible) problem with clipping the into the tie in points is that the energy of the fall doesn't just load the crab along its major axis (the longest one), but it puts some of the load on minor axis too. Clip into your harness this way and hang from it (as you would when abseiling). The leg loop tie in point will be in direct opposition to the belay device (ie major axis loadig), while the waist belt tie in point will be pulling in a direction that has some component of the force loading the biner along its minor axis.

You can easily see that this outwards force on the minor axis could be an issue in a big fall by looking at the ratings on your carabiner. That said, I'm not convinced that it's a big enough issue to worry about when belaying normally, as belayers generally don't experience anywhere near the forces the leader would. One situation it might be more of an issue could be when the belayer has to catch a factor-2 fall when the belay device is clipped in directinly to the tie in points.
2:02:27 PM
Slightly off topic, but who saw The White Tower on TV recently? A 1950s movie based on a James Ramsey Ullman novel. All the 'climbers' tied into the main rope via a Krab on the waist 'loop', which consisted of a sling placed behind their back and joined with a krab in front of their stomach. This is same krab that they clipped the main rope into!

2:16:31 PM
On 11/12/2008 Teeds wrote:
> Hadn't thought about the 3 way loading, will have to look closer to see
>if the loops crunch up into one. Hmmm.

Worth looking at, particularly if you're using a small-ish biner. But I have to echo what Eduardo says - if you're using a large locking biner cross loading is almost* impossible.

* The only way I've thought it might be possible is if you somehow get the gate caught on something, but the same problem exists if you're using just the belay loop.

Eduardo Slabofvic
2:37:49 PM
Here's another one for all you harness vs belay loopers, the belay loop on my harness has only got 2 bar
tacks. My daisy chain (which is permanently larks footed through leg loops and waist belt) came with the
recommendation not to clip through two loops, as the 2 bar tacks can rip and then you'll be floating free,
soon to shuffle off this mortal coil.

So....hmmmm......2 bar tacks good?..........2 bar tacks bad?..........hmmmm

Online Now
3:21:17 PM
On 18/12/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>So....hmmmm......2 bar tacks good?..........2 bar tacks bad?..........hmmmm

One of the tests in this series was a 4 tack belay loop with 2 tacks cut ~17.66kN. The best result was ~33kN and the worst ~3.46kN for a belay loop 90% cut through. Not an adaquate sample to make any conclusions though.

3:27:03 PM
When belaying a cross loaded biner in reality is not a problem, 99.9% OF THE TIME. Most of them are rated at 9kN give or take 1kN. UIAA spec says a rope must impart a maximum force of 9kN. Tests have shown that the forces in 99.9% of falls don't even reach half of that. When top roping it's a completely moot point. If the companies were really that worried the cross load biner was an issue they would have the harnesses and biners built together or have a different setup so that keepers can be employed. The DMM or WC plastic thingymajig is a good idea and works well but it's more a sales gimick, otherwise all of their biners would have them. Just use common sense and keep an eye on your gear.
3:55:06 PM
I generally clip in through the waist and leg loops and not the belay loop. I suppose it depends a lot on the harness that you are using as well as the belay device.
For me, the reasoning is:
1. the biner is easier to keep oriented in the position I want and seems to stay put better when I need to take in or the climber falls
2. there is less movement of the biner when belaying - so less likelyhood of cross loading the biner (But I think this really depends on your belay position)
3. 3-way loading hasn't been a potential issue with the harnesses I've used as the waist and leg loop usually meet at the same place when forces are pulling the biner hard in any direction - so in effect the force on the biner is basically the same as on the belay loop in this circumstance (I think).

The thing I haven't really considered is when you are tied to the anchor and the forces involved in both directions if you used the belay loop.

1:42:12 PM
On 18/12/2008 ohrabanek wrote:
>The thing I haven't really considered is when you are tied to the anchor
>and the forces involved in both directions if you used the belay loop.

At least the belay loop can more easily pivot to align with the 'new' direction force.

In the past I have found some directional force on the krab connecting legloops and waistloop in certain belay situations, but it was never extreme and was easily managed.

5:39:16 PM
So I decided to have a look at it this morning and run an experiment of sorts

A few observations:
1) Most of the weight is in the leg loop (a diir)
2) Leg loop (reaction force) is almost in line with rope/atc (loading force) thus most of the weight in the leg loop
3) Angle between leg and waist loops is about 50 degrees.

Link to same convo on tradgirl FAQ Found the history behind the belay loop interesting.

6:51:15 PM
DMM plastic: I've had two of these and lost the plastic thing both during multi-pitch routes when they twisted off during a changeover; they're also a right pain in the arse when using a munter as they reduce the available space for the rope to move freely, and; the velcro option was cheap.

9:32:25 AM
On 19/12/2008 Teeds wrote:
>So I decided to have a look at it this morning and run an experiment of

errr....the biner is upside down - at least compared to how I clip in for belaying. Or were you testing the case where the biner flips unexpectedly?

9:23:25 AM
Here is an example of an only moderately worn tie-in point failure. I was back jumping a route in Nowra, to clean it, taking hard falls. There was a loud popping/ripping and a feeling of being strangled by the waist! Now, the harness was worn, but I was sure it was still within its limits. Take note people!
Oh yeah, this is also a "cross promotion" for trying to sell the replacement harness I bought that was too big.(see For Sale:Black Diamond Phoenix Large)

11:47:40 AM
That must have been a pants filling experience...


 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 82
There are 82 messages in this topic.


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