Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Author	Im Knots About Climbing
muki 21-May-2007 2:10:26 AM	Yeah, your comments always make me laugh! like this one: >(but I HAVE seen them loosen - in particular with very new thick/stiff sheafed ropes).. Me too but only a single bowline NOT rethreaded, and only in work statics that are so stiif they are more like cables, so they want to try and straighten out and don't bend very well, with short tails and lots and lots of movement they can even come undone!!!!, but that's not what I'm talking about is it!? I'm talking about the knot that's in the picture above, tied in a supple and flexible climbing rope, and I also believe in checking/rechecking, this is not a magic cure all for beginers, just a really really safe tie in thats easy and practical, your ranting comments like: >a discipline of checking and rechecking a knot rather that teaching a magic knot that will cure the >heathen beginners of all their ails...And moreover I think that the latter is more dangerous" blah blah etc. seem to make me feel that you are incapable of learning a new trick, in other words you are stuck in a habit ritual that only lets you feel safe if you do things a certain way, and don't ever look outside your box! at why you do that ,you've been told do it thus and so, you don't question that, merely repeat it without really understanding why, but it makes you feel safe! thats ok, I got a little insight into your mental workings with several key comments you made about "short safe sport routes", and "people crazy enough to multi pitch", etc, so I get it I understand where you're comming from It's OK just relax and breath, it will come more slowly for you, thats OK, take your time, when you're ready you will try. PS. I'm not evangelical about my knot, I tie kids on 8's all day long, just trying to show you (those willing to listen) something thats cool and works well, It's the whimsical crap that makes me think you're stupid or slow or both, thats all! the bomb
Ronny 21-May-2007 8:39:40 AM	It's the whimsical >crap that makes me think >you're stupid or slow or both, thats all! the bomb NICE! Ever the diplomat eh Bomb? I'm still not convinced by the 'tie in one motion' thing. Sure, if you 'half-tie' the re-threaded bowline, you've got a single bowline - which should hold ok. But if a single bowline's ok, why didn't you just tie it in the first place? It seems to me that the real benefit of the re-threading thing is that it stops the problem that you can have with a normal bowline being loaded across the bight (as discussed above). Anyway - I'm sufficiently convinced that I've been tying in with one for a while now. But the way you go on about it Bomb anyone would think you had shares in it or something...
pat 21-May-2007 9:21:01 AM	Some interesting thoughts here amongst the ribbing. I've never used a bowline because I believed that the forces at the knot where significantly higher. I have seen this tested with both the 8 and the bowline tied in line and then stretched to breaking. The Bowline always broke first and you could actually see the melting on the sheath. But having said that I can see the idea behind the re-thread bowline as pictured. Good point about never having the risk of leaving the 8 on the end of the rope. I have never done this, but a few newer climbers with me have. Also, I'm not a climber that takes lots of whippers on a sport climb, but I am thinking of giving it a try. I can see where this would be a much easier knot to untie than an 8. Reminds me of a guy I climbed with who had had some alpine training. He used to thread an un-knotted rope through twice and then tie half a double fisherman as the stopper with a 'decent' tail. The fisherman would then be slid up the rope to the harness bringing everything tight. Personally, I could never bring myself to use that one. Thinking about it, you could never trust to clip into the bight. I would always teach an 8 to beginners. Just seems to be a good starting point. Just a few thoughts.
mousey 21-May-2007 9:54:40 AM	thats how they do em at the gym i route set for pat- 2 biiners; 1 on an a.butterfly and the end one with a dbl fishermans. seems to do the trick but i cant imagine what the advantages are
muki 21-May-2007 12:01:22 PM	On 21/05/2007 Ronny wrote: >It's the whimsical >>crap that makes me think >>you're stupid or slow or both, thats all! the bomb > >NICE! >Ever the diplomat eh Bomb? I stand by those comments, if you stand by your comment about the bowline put under some wierd pressure crap, cos that and concern about clipping the bite (god knows why you would do that but...) are just stupid! and if you are being whimsical to me in your comments on purpose, then you are slow! >I'm still not convinced by the 'tie in one motion' thing. Sure, if you >'half-tie' the re-threaded bowline, you've got a single bowline - which >should hold ok. But if a single bowline's ok, why didn't you just tie >it in the first place? one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it, and it's worth 44kn, do the math ! >It seems to me that the real benefit of the re-threading thing is that >it stops the problem that you can have with a normal bowline being loaded >across the bight (as discussed above). of course that can only happen if you are loading a section of the knot that cannot come under load in the normal use of this tie in, you are again demonstrating your ignorance of the mechanics of the knot. >Anyway - I'm sufficiently convinced that I've been tying in with one for >a while now. But the way you go on about it Bomb anyone would think you >had shares in it or something... Glad to hear that you use it on short safe sport routes (although this makes me feel that you don't trust it, and so only use it when you are close to the ground on "safe" sport climbs whatever that means? And as I have said I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU TIE IN WITH and don't have shares in it! But I can't help but try to educate you, as you clearly demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about! on a regular basis...the bomb
Eduardo Slabofvic 21-May-2007 1:49:28 PM	I'm glad no ones mentioned the bunny eared figure 8.........woops.
Zebedee 21-May-2007 7:35:24 PM	I have almost always tied in with a figure eight and a stopper knot. An easily recognised knot that makes it easy to confirm. (And I have never had to cut the rope because I couldn't undo it.) I have occasionaly tied in with a double bow-line. I certainly admire Bombers typing abilities including his excellent use of the caps shift key though I usually wouldn't bother reading the crap he writes.
muki 21-May-2007 11:28:04 PM	Hey Andreas, I only write factual crap and try not to just sledge people for the hell of it , or respond at all unless I feel that whoever I am responding to is sledging or taking the piss, much like you! I recomend the ignore button for all my posts then you wont have to bore us with your response to my response crap so look my profile up and select the ignore post button, as I am just about to do with all your posts!
mikl law 22-May-2007 8:15:54 AM	1 Use what you're familiar with unless there's a good reason 2 Figure 8 is strong (~ 80% efficiency) easy to check, both on yourself and on other people. But if you simultaneously reach my magnificant build, and are taking a lot of falls, you will get strong fingers trying to untie it. 3 I believe that the rethreaded bowline (or bowline on bight) is a bit better than a standard bowline (which also put Adrian Coper, who taught me and Kim and Saxon and Mark baker etc climbing, in hospital). It is a bit more obvious if it's been mis-stied, it's stronger (>> 60% efficiency), and it doesn't need a stopper really. 4 Bowline is easy for tying off trees etc, use a double barrel stopper knot though. 5 Despite the low apparent strength of a bowline, ropes always break somewhere else. 6 One advantage of the figure 8 is that more rope is dargged through it in a fall, thus absorbing energy. This may be one of the reasons for preferring it to an overhand knot back in the hemp rope days 7 90% of the time I use a bowline on bight, generally with stopper, which is always untied by the time I top out. it gives me something to fiddle with when i get scared.
pat 22-May-2007 10:16:21 AM	Just to clarify what you are saying Mike. The normal bowline put a few people in hospital, but most of the time you use a bowline on a bight. So you form a bight first and then make a bowline using the whole bight?
PreferKnitting 22-May-2007 10:32:38 AM	>BomberPro wrote: >one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it, and it's worth 44kn, do the math ! Um, not so sure that this is how forces work. If you have one sling that has a max force of 22Kn, then having two slings will distribute the loads between the two slings rather than increase the overall strength of the sling. Isn't it like adding a teaspoon of sugar into your coffee? even if you add more or less coffee you still have the same amount of sugar -unless you start to drink it and then add more coffee... BomberPro have you got a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde complex? You swing wildly between being amicable and being down-right obnoxious. Here you are calling everyone stupid and slow again! You're being abit hypocritical when you choose to quote from TV shows such as Ugly Betty.
Ronny 22-May-2007 11:03:38 AM	On 22/05/2007 pat wrote: >Just to clarify what you are saying Mike. The normal bowline put a few >people in hospital, but most of the time you use a bowline on a bight. >So you form a bight first and then make a bowline using the whole bight? I think the 'bow-line' on the bight Mike is referring to is Bomb's rethreaded bowline. I think it is called that because it can be tied on the bight (when you don't want it through your harness). Bomb will probably educate me about this though and remind me I'm stupid in the process...
pat 22-May-2007 11:17:03 AM	That may be Ronny, but a re-thread will be slightly different. A bowline on a bight will have both tails going through a double loop as it were and above the stopper knot you will have the end of the bight, which will be a loop. Maybe someone out there can find a picture or draw one if you know what I mean. I just tied one here in my office with a spare phone cable and it looks a lot different to the re-thread, but a whole lot quicker to tie than a re-thread figure eight.
disciple of da wood 22-May-2007 11:35:06 AM	On 22/05/2007 Ronny wrote: >On 22/05/2007 pat wrote: > >Bomb will probably educate me about this though and remind me I'm stupid >in the process... please allow me. your stupid! if you can't tie a knot then just tie a lot!
Eduardo Slabofvic 22-May-2007 11:54:05 AM	The thing that I call a bowline on a bight is where you pass the tail around the rope then tie the bowline. When pulled tight the rope will cinch up against whatever has been put in the loop created between the knot and the rest of the rope. It's good for hauling soft things. Having just consulted my copy of "A Fresh Approach to Knotting and Ropework (Charles Warner 1995)" there are 31 variations on the bowline. I have decided that the Splayed Portuguese Bowline should be adopted as the standard, as I got splayed in Portugal once and it was great fun, although some of you may prefer the Cowboy Bowline, but then each to their own. On the subject of figure 8’s. Just to be pedantic you are not going to get any security from a figure 8 knot as it does not form a loop so therefore cannot attach to your harness. A double figure 8 on the other hand does form a loop. The double figure 8 does have a tendency to lock when loaded. To remedy this you can either start climbing better so you don’t fall off so much, or alternatively try a figure 9 which adds one more turn to the 8 and can be a little easier to untie. Warner (1995) goes on to describe the Stevedore Loop which adds further turns. “The Figure 9 Loop and the Stevedore Loop give grater security than the Figure 8 Loop”, (Warner, 1995). Who’d have thought that tying knots could be so much fun……lordy lordy lordy. You could probably tie on with a clove hitch and still survive a decent lob. I encourage you to tie on with what ever floats your pontoon, and remember if pain persists consult your Doctor.
mikl law 22-May-2007 12:45:42 PM	On 22/05/2007 pat wrote: >Just to clarify what you are saying Mike. The normal bowline put a few >people in hospital, but most of the time you use a bowline on a bight. >So you form a bight first and then make a bowline using the whole bight? I've confused everyone - I've been calling it a bowline on bight which is also a rethreaded bolwine. A double bowline to some people means you start by making a double loop for the rabbit to go through.
patto 22-May-2007 12:59:00 PM	On 22/05/2007 PreferKnitting wrote: >>BomberPro wrote: >>one length of sling is worth 22kn wrap it twice around, ie double it, >and it's worth 44kn, do the math ! > >Um, not so sure that this is how forces work. If you have one sling that >has a max force of 22Kn, then having two slings will distribute the loads >between the two slings rather than increase the overall strength of the >sling. > Why doesn't the maths work like that? Doubling a sling will pretty much double the force it will hold. (To be technical there will be a slight reduction due to the turn radius). Similarly you could hang from a 'single' piece of cotton thread could hold your weight if you wrapped it back&forth between your tie in point and the hang point 1000 or so times.
BigMike 22-May-2007 1:05:00 PM	On 22/05/2007 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote: > >The double figure 8 does have a tendency to lock when loaded. To remedy >this you can either start >climbing better so you don’t fall off so much, or alternatively try a >figure 9 which adds one more turn to the >8 and can be a little easier to untie. Is that same or similar to a passback, which I use to help me unstick the knot after loading it with a flying 105kg.??
Ronny 22-May-2007 2:05:19 PM	On 22/05/2007 disciple of da wood wrote: >On 22/05/2007 Ronny wrote: >>On 22/05/2007 pat wrote: > >> >>Bomb will probably educate me about this though and remind me I'm stupid >>in the process... > >please allow me. your stupid! > >if you can't tie a knot then just tie a lot! Thanks dodw - just what I needed. *you're* the best. I think the re-threaded bowline is sometimes called a bowline on the bight because you can tie it like this: http://www.animatedknots.com/bowlinebight/index.php You obviously can't tie it like this onto your harness, so you re-thread it.
BigMike 22-May-2007 4:02:52 PM	On 22/05/2007 BigMike wrote: >On 22/05/2007 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote: > >> >>The double figure 8 does have a tendency to lock when loaded. To remedy >>this you can either start >>climbing better so you don’t fall off so much, or alternatively try a >>figure 9 which adds one more turn to the >>8 and can be a little easier to untie. > >Is that same or similar to a passback, which I use to help me unstick >the knot after loading it with a flying 105kg.?? > No, I've ascertained it's not. I use a figure-eight with a passback - end is passed through the knot again, with a bit of a loop - you can hook finger into this and pull to ease the knot after loading. Anyone got anything bad to say about this?

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