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Author	Cam failure discussion
Macciza 21-Apr-2015 4:28:24 PM	Wendy - bit pedantically semantic if you ask me . . . So you 'set' nuts but don't test them, and 'test' cams but don't set them ??? Sure I will often just whack in a cam and continue in the belief that it is good... But if I want to be sure I 'set' it in the perfect place and then test it . . I'll often through a nut in and continue if it's a bomber placement, no set or test . . . If I want to be sure I'll set it, and continue, or if worried set and test . . Maybe it's a Blueies thing . . . To me, 'setting' is the act of getting the piece 'set' in the best part of the placement, whether cam or nut. Setting properly can help avoid the walking, twisting or lifting you talk about, and make it harder to kick out ... Can't remember for sure, are you one of those who 'sets' nuts so hard that the seconder has a hard time cleaning or are you a soft set climber?
One Day Hero 21-Apr-2015 5:28:20 PM	Nope Macca, you set nuts so that they don't get flicked out by your rope while climbing past (or zippered in a fall). If I was placing a very marginal nut, I'd consider this process testing as well. You don't set cams because cams don't set. Have you ever heard someone bitching about how their leader sets cams too hard and they are difficult to get out? I don't really test cams in good looking spots made of frictional rock (because I've always found them to be ridiculously reliable). I test cams at Bungers, and if they're in the slippery bits of rock at Araps and Frog.
Macciza 21-Apr-2015 6:09:56 PM	Like I said 'semantics' .... Setting a wire means giving it a tug to get it to grip in the right place and not move about ... Setting a cam means making sure the lobes are well placed, balanced, etc and its in the right place ... If I just throw it in I give it it a quick tug to test it, and have a quick look to see that it's set properly ... Maybe I'm just using more marginal placements these days which really requires that these cams need to be set properly in order to get the best placement. Possibly my regular use of offset cams also factors in because I'm using techy placements where regular cammers wouldn't go .... I still maintain that it is important for people, particularly beginners, to make sure there cams are set properly. And yes I have had situation where setting a cam better would have made for easier removal, due to bad placement/setting causing additional issues ....
One Day Hero 21-Apr-2015 6:34:07 PM	On 21/04/2015 Macciza wrote: >Like I said 'semantics' .... Well, clearly that is what "setting a cam" means to you. However, assuming the point of language is to communicate ideas clearly, one good way of improving communication is to weed out stupid little quirks like this one of yours. Obviously you know your way around gear and don't need anything explained, but some newer climbers might. Do you really think that using the word "set" to mean "set" for wires, and using the same word "set" to mean "place and test" for cams is the clearest possible way to communicate what you're doing? Or is it just a bad habit that you fell into ages ago, and now you're being stubborn?
Wendy 21-Apr-2015 6:34:49 PM	On 21/04/2015 kieranl wrote: >> >>No Future is another notorious one for ripping gear - I haven't actually >>gone and tested any of the slots in question but I might remember to >next >>time. >I thought it was notorious because people weren't placing directionals >at the start so the gear would unzip from the bottom before the top piece >pulled. The last time I saw someone rip gear off No Future it was 5 pieces from the top down. He pulled up about 2mm off the ground. I don't think the rock was the problem ... No Future does have a couple of those very polished almost parallel bit on it. You don't have to use them, but I might go and try and tug a cam out of one as an experiment.
Wendy 21-Apr-2015 6:44:11 PM	On 21/04/2015 Macciza wrote: >Like I said 'semantics' .... >Setting a wire means giving it a tug to get it to grip in the right place >and not move about ... >Setting a cam means making sure the lobes are well placed, balanced, etc >and its in the right place ... These are two different things! Damo is on my wave length. I set wires all the time. Not because I need to test them or adjust them or make sure it's in the right place, but to wedge it in there so it won't flick out as I climb past it. And no, I am not a great welder. Not for lack of trying sometimes, but lack of mass. Following some more substantial friends up routes, when 90kg of climber sets a wire, it's pretty well set. What you call "setting" a cam is what I call simply "placing" a cam. It involves a good look, sometimes an adjustment, not usually a tug. Tugging a cam you know is in a good spot is pointless.
ajfclark 21-Apr-2015 6:53:49 PM	I'll occasionally tug on a cam after placing it. The likelihood goes up with my level of stress (as does the level of setness in my nut placements). Why? Usually to (hopefully) go from 'knowing' it's a good placement to knowing it's a good placement (neither of which truly know) and other times because I think it looks a bit poxy and I want to see what it does.
Wendy 21-Apr-2015 7:07:19 PM	On 21/04/2015 One Day Hero wrote: > >The placements are great but a lot of the rock at Frog is glassy as hell, >hence the number of people who hit the ground because their cams slide >out. Same with Araps. Just run a few examples by me again? I can't remember ever actually taking a big winger at Frog, but this theory about friction apparantly applies regardless of the force. If it's going to go, it'll go with a tug as much as a fall. Which I assume is the reason for thinking a tug is a somehow sufficient test as well. In the light of that, I have slumped onto plenty of gear at Frog. None of them moved. I have screamed onto more than my fair share of pieces at Araps. Nothing that I expected to hold moved. So that leads me to conclude that either: A: I am very lucky B: The rock isn't really that slippery C: People just aren't "placing" (not setting!) their cams well I am going with option C - Australia's crags aren't exactly bristling with this problem. Maybe other crags are (and I haven't been to Bungers since the 90s, so I can't comment on there). When you have a choice (like No Future, or Trojan), place something else other than the cam in the glassy slot. Make sure any glassy slot you do have to use is not the only thing between you and the ground. Or revert to the leader shall not fall mantra. I shall be at Frog in 5 weeks (not that I"m counting down at all) - I shall do some experimental "setting" of cams in varying degrees of smooth rock and report back if any of them move. I'll do the same at the Mt tomorrow. I'm quite curious if I can make a perfectly good looking cam come out with a little Wendy weld. And my cams are much nicer than that horrible old one in the video. I think his main mistake was climbing on old metolious cams! Very few people seem to hit the ground with cams >sliding out at Buffalo, Booroomba, the Blueys, etc. Very few people actually go climbing at Buffalo, Booroomba or Blueys trad ...
patto 21-Apr-2015 7:21:01 PM	On 21/04/2015 Wendy wrote: >What you call "setting" a cam is what I call simply "placing" a cam. It >involves a good look, sometimes an adjustment, not usually a tug. Tugging >a cam you know is in a good spot is pointless. Most of the time it is pointless. But occasionally it isn't and when it isn't you are normally very thankful that you did test that cam. A tug on a cam is just my standard operating procedure. If you don't want to do it for perfect cams in perfect rock then cool. But if the rock is at all smooth or glassy then I'd be doing it. Same for awkward placements.
dmcg 21-Apr-2015 7:29:35 PM	Never gave that much thought to the role of friction in cam holding ability until standing in aiders clipped to what I thought a 'bomber' 1.5 friend placement, up and under a small rooflet at Bungonia i.e. the cam was sticking straight downwards from well in a parallel sided 1 inch crack behind the rooflet and I was standing in aiders clipped into it, fully weighting the cam happily hand drilling a bolt hole. After a minute or so I shifted my weight slightly in the aiders and was instantly airborne. On getting back up to that point and having a good look at where there cam blew - it did look a ‘bomber’ placement as far as shape of the crack, cam position in the crack and load direction went, but the sides of the crack were glass smooth. Smooth (very) rock lesson learned and treated any Bungonia cam placement with a tad of suspicion ever since.
jezza 21-Apr-2015 8:35:01 PM	On 21/04/2015 White Gold wrote: >Q: Do cam teeth do anything? > >A: Maybe. Manufacturers add them because, while few of us can grasp the >real magic that locks a cam into place (the “constant angle”), we think >that teeth help. But it’s mostly marketing, as cams without teeth would >hold just the same. > >When Ray Jardine rolled out the first commercial camming unit, the Friend, >in the mid 1970s, he tried to be practical by making smooth-faced cams. >But the first climbers to see the units scoffed and said they’d never hold. >Only after Jardine added teeth did climbers begin to trust them. > >Some people claim that teeth help the cams bite into grimy placements. >This makes sense, but there’s no data to prove it. Still, since confidence >breeds safety, the psychological advantage afforded by cam teeth justifies >their existence. > >http://www.rockandice.com/gear-guide-tips/cams-frequently-asked-questions I have an annoying set of pliers that don't have teeth! They are often useless, because they slip even if I'm gripping hard. Doesn't happen as much with 'toothed' pliers. I suspect that is because many of the things we grip with pliers are reasonably soft. The material deforms under the higher pressure of the teeth, and they dig in. That helps prevent the material slipping. I guess this doesn't apply to rock that's good for climbing (because it isn't soft). By the way my toothless pliers are about as good as the toothy ones on harder surfaces, maybe even better sometimes.
JamesMc 21-Apr-2015 10:34:03 PM	SLCDs are friction anchors, They depend on friction between the aluminium and the rock. The ability of the friction to work depends on the ratio of the force into the rock (compression) divided by the sliding force ( shear). If the crack does not flare outward, the ratio depends only on the shape of the cam and not the shape of the crack. (If the crack flares outward, it's more complicated, you sort of loose some friction on stopping the cam from sliding out sideways) Friends and Dragon Cams have more secure shapes than Camelots and Aliens. An interesting experiment to do at home is to place a cam between two china or glass plates and see how easy it is to pull it out. Sure it's easy - the surprise is just how easy! If you tilt the plates sideways, the cam will pop out by itself. We don't climb on glass, but we don't climb on sand paper either. Smooth rock is somewhere in between and cams do sometimes slip out. JamesMc
kieranl 21-Apr-2015 10:39:01 PM	I can't say that I ever set cams either. I would bounce-test if I'm aid climbing but I haven't done that for a long time. For free-climbing it's about placing the cam in the best spot with the axle correctly aligned and trying to make sure that it doesn't walk. The only cams I've had pull were in placements that I knew were dodgy. But the sample size is small as I'm too much of a wimp to take a lot of falls.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 22-Apr-2015 8:54:22 AM	I see both sides of the discussion here, and at times have used both methods of placing/setting cams. ... Some placements have surprised me, and likewise some setttings have also surprised me. On 21/04/2015 Wendy wrote: >Tugging a cam you know is in a good spot is pointless. & mikl wrote; >cams are great on granite and most sandstone, and they even hold in flares. On 21/04/2015 kieranl wrote: >I can't say that I ever set cams either. I would bounce-test if I'm aid >climbing but I haven't done that for a long time. For free-climbing it's >about placing the cam in the best spot with the axle correctly aligned >and trying to make sure that it doesn't walk. The only cams I've had pull >were in placements that I knew were dodgy. (snip) Generally +1 (ie the free climbing bit), however I have found through many aid placements that unless I think it might be less than bomber, bounce testing of cams is generally a waste of time. Earlier in thread it was mentioned that aiding helps individuals work out what are good/bad placements. This is true! It especially hones ones skills when the placements are less than of a straight forward nature. But, it can again become difficult to assess cam placements when the aid becomes dodgy, especially in chossy rock. As an aside, when going from the sublime to the ridiculous 'thin-aid' end of the spectrum, I have often/regularly relied on only two lobes engaged of cams as 'progress pieces' (as opposed to protection pieces), ... and am fully aware they are unlikely to hold a slump onto them, let alone a fall. Testing dicey placements like that is mostly a lightweight method rather than full-on bounce testing which would only blow the placement. I have stripped cams in granite but only in two situations, wet and somewhat polished granite, badly weathered 'crusty' granite, and the latter due more to the rock crumbling.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 22-Apr-2015 9:02:00 AM	On 21/04/2015 Wendy wrote: >>On 21/04/2015 kieranl wrote: >>No Future is another notorious one for ripping gear – (snip) >>I thought it was notorious because people weren't placing directionals >>at the start so the gear would unzip from the bottom before the top piece pulled. >The last time I saw someone rip gear off No Future it was 5 pieces from the top down. He pulled up about 2mm off the ground. Top down and was still held off the deck? ... or as kieranl suggests?
Wendy 22-Apr-2015 9:51:24 AM	On 22/04/2015 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: > >>The last time I saw someone rip gear off No Future it was 5 pieces from >the top down. He pulled up about 2mm off the ground. > >Top down and was still held off the deck? ... or as kieranl suggests? Really the top 5 pieces. He had done the traverse, made a move or so up, came off, ripped 5 pieces and I may be generous when I say he missed the ground by 2mm. It was really ugly.
tris 22-Apr-2015 10:26:03 AM	>Just run a few examples by me again? I can't remember ever actually taking >a big winger at Frog, but this theory about friction apparantly applies >regardless of the force. If it's going to go, it'll go with a tug as much >as a fall. Which I assume is the reason for thinking a tug is a somehow >sufficient test as well. In the light of that, I have slumped onto plenty >of gear at Frog. None of them moved. One example is Erg (direct start). There have been a number of cams pulled on this climb resulting in ground falls (have a look at youtube for proof). This climb has rock that is quite polished down low. You probably won't find out until you take a fall as I am not sure if you can get into a good enough position to give the cam a solid tug during the start moves. You could lower down and give it a good test. In the video from the original thread, it looks like the guy gave the cam a really solid tug. When I am setting/testing cams, I don't think I pull on them that hard (and I am not sure if this is hard enough to completely "test" the camming action). Surely there is a level of force involved that would overcome the little amount of friction present in slick rock which is less than that of bodyweight or a fall?
ajfclark 22-Apr-2015 10:30:07 AM	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUGHeq3SoI
Cams 22-Apr-2015 10:39:44 AM	I've popped a cam falling at Frog, but it was placed without being able to fully inspect it. And it was a Link cam. There should be a thread somewhere on chockstone documenting this, and my brother subsequently selling all our link cams. After plenty of testing on the ground after this incident we simply didn't trust them at all at Frog. Apart from this I've fallen on more than a handful and sat on more again at Frog and never had any reason to doubt our C4's, Totems or Aliens.
johnpitcairn 22-Apr-2015 10:40:02 AM	Rhyolite huh? Can't say I've had a cam skate out in the NZ version thereof, but I've certainly had one do so in local basalt. Pint-size belayer and I wound up upside down about 50cm off the deck, thanks to a good small nut placement before the cam. Don't think "setting" the cam would have helped, smooth basalt, slight flare.

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