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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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Poll Option Votes Graph
Above 17
24% 
Below 36
51% 
I don't use an autolock system while abseiling 18
25% 

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 77
Author
Prusik while abseiling - above or below device?

BlankSlab
1/08/2012
10:32:52 AM
On 1/08/2012 citationx wrote:
>On 1/08/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>On 1/08/2012 citationx wrote:
>>Do you never make a mistake?
>
>I can honestly say that I have never unclipped an anchor, or weighted
>something or done something that would have/could have resulted in injury
>or worse (edit: perhaps I should say "i never have had a fear that
>indicated that unclipping or weighting etc"). I may have forgotten to do
>something I needed to, but always while "still safe". I've never done random
>things that other people have mentioned like "wow, lucky i had that piece
>in cause i randomly slipped and fell only a short distance". Like, what?
>how do you randomly slip and fall?
>I certainly don't use a prussik (if i use it) to protect myself against
>forgetting to thread my belay device properly and plunging to my death.

I look at it this way. I get in a car and put a seat belt on that in the event of an accident it might save my life.
I abseil i use a prusic loop. Things do go wrong and the time it does for you i think most people here wouldn't want to be there to watch it happen.

In saying that a lot of people climbing do things that they think is an acceptable risk.
For myself personally i dont want to take that risk so i dont

muki
1/08/2012
10:41:06 AM
On 1/08/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 1/08/2012 davidn wrote:
>>
>>Is this actually possible with most harnesses? I thought most had the
>>big flap of stitched back webbing at the end which would be almost impossible
>>to suck through the clips.
>I have no personal knowledge of this, just found the link and thought
>it worth posting. You will note that the harness shown in the blog has
>the ends of the webbing stitched back. However this is a convenience to
>keep the buckles threaded, not load-bearing. It wouldn't make it "impossible"
>for the end of webbing to be pulled back through the clips.

In the scenario given where the leg loop comes loose, it is not receiving "load" it is just being pulled upwards by the prusik, the bulk of the "load" is still being held by the harness waist loops via the belay loop and decender, the prusik then jambs into the decender because the leg loop has elongated.
the construction of my harness is the same as the example given of self locking buckles that are cinched tight by pulling, they have a fold in the webbing at the end that is stitched with a bar tack !, these bar tacks are what holds the harness & belay loop together, and are fully rated to not only hold a load, but also hold the many repeated shock loads of a falling climber.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1/08/2012
11:14:54 AM
On 1/08/2012 muki wrote:
>the construction of my harness is the same as the example given of self
>locking buckles that are cinched tight by pulling, they have a fold in
>the webbing at the end that is stitched with a bar tack !, these bar tacks
>are what holds the harness & belay loop together, and are fully rated to
>not only hold a load, but also hold the many repeated shock loads of a
>falling climber.

A bar tack in the end of a cinching strap has a different application to bar tacks sewing rated portions of a harness together though...


Muki also wrote;
>this covers me in many situations, unconciousness, lost control, no more rope, or damaged rope, and with knots in the ends, also uneven rapel on two different diameters or one of the two ropes bieng shorter, as when any of the above happen then the belay device is the first to fail and my back up riding above is then allowed to take over

All good examples of why having a backup is often a good idea!

As an aside, I have 'tested by practice for myself' the above-device prussik backup system in a controlled environment (read just off ground level out of a gum tree in the back yard), with unequal diameter ropes / unequal length ropes, and non tied off rope ends; ... & I found that it is actually possible to abseil off the rope (or one strand of it), without it fully engaging! The prussik locked off but not quickly enough due rope slippage under tension, to prevent the ensuing 'fall'.
~> Tying stopper knot/s in ends of abseil ropes is a good idea!!
tskinner
1/08/2012
11:23:39 AM
On 1/08/2012 ajfclark wrote:
>I remember watching someone struggle with an upper prussic as they popped
>around the lip of the roof abseiling down from Navare. They ended up with
>the prussic above the lip and were unable to free it as their weight was
>holding the rope tight against the upper face and around the lip.
>
>Seemed like one situation that regardless of her usual practise, the lower
>prussic would've been the better option.

Ah, yes...I remember that. I have some photos of that young lady suspended over the lip

ajfclark
1/08/2012
11:34:15 AM
On 1/08/2012 deadbudgy wrote:
>I think its more of a case of not rigging her backup properly. Just like using the lower backup, you need to take care to have your prussick the correct length.

I didn't get a great look at her setup, but I'm pretty sure prussic was a decent length and only a short way above her belay device. As she went around the lip she managed to get her belay device past the lip but the prussic was above when her feet came off. After freeing her hand she realised she couldn't move the prussic. There's not much for your feet under that roof so she couldn't lift the rope off the face to slide the prussic down the rope. In the end someone else in her party prussiced down toward her a bit and lifted the rope away from the edge.

I can't see how a lower backup could hang up going around a roof in the same way. I don't extend the belay device like the diagram above and that might cause similar issues, but I suspect it would free itself if you just kept feeding as per usual.

ajfclark
1/08/2012
11:40:11 AM
On 1/08/2012 tskinner wrote:
>Ah, yes...I remember that. I have some photos of that young lady suspended over the lip

This was her, wasn't it?

tskinner
1/08/2012
11:48:07 AM
On 1/08/2012 ajfclark wrote:
>On 1/08/2012 tskinner wrote:
>>Ah, yes...I remember that. I have some photos of that young lady suspended
>over the lip
>
>This was her, wasn't it?
>
>

Yep.

muki
1/08/2012
11:53:08 AM
On 1/08/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>A bar tack in the end of a cinching strap has a different application
>to bar tacks sewing rated portions of a harness together though...
>☺
no doubt it does, but it's still a bar tack.

>Muki also wrote;
>>this covers me in many situations, unconciousness, lost control, no more
>rope, or damaged rope, and with knots in the ends, also uneven rapel on
>two different diameters or one of the two ropes bieng shorter, as when
>any of the above happen then the belay device is the first to fail and
>my back up riding above is then allowed to take over
>
>All good examples of why having a backup is often a good idea!
>
>As an aside, I have 'tested by practice for myself' the above-device prussik
>backup system in a controlled environment (read just off ground level out
>of a gum tree in the back yard), with unequal diameter ropes / unequal
>length ropes, and non tied off rope ends; ... & I found that it is actually
>possible to abseil off the rope (or one strand of it), without it fully
>engaging! The prussik locked off but not quickly enough due rope slippage
>under tension, to prevent the ensuing 'fall'.
>~> Tying stopper knot/s in ends of abseil ropes is a good idea!!
>☺
I would say stoppers are crucial for differing diameters on double rope rapells !
Due to differential slipage on decent, this could lead to both one rope ending earlier than the other, and when that happens most prusics fail as the two ropes then travel in opposite directions.

BlankSlab
1/08/2012
11:57:58 AM
That would be a case where having a spare prusik would be handy.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1/08/2012
12:07:15 PM
@ Muki
>bar tack

I doubt that you or I would be happy to rely on a bar tack in the end of a cinch strap preventing an interesting circumstance in a climbing situation, ... given that neither of us rig that way. ;-)
(I note that you are not advocating that it would have). ☺
~> I reckon that even bodyweight loading could strip a bar tacked cinch strap out of one of those buckles! ... and if that happened then the backup prussik would easily ride up into the abseil device.

On 1/08/2012 Batey wrote:
>That would be a case where having a spare prusik would be handy.
>
I'm glad she eventually got sorted safely; ... as the picture shows a scary scene where she was probably trying to free her prussik without having her abseil device 'locked off' / backed up...?
~> That situation could have resulted in a too-fast abseil descent unless she had a ground person backing up tension in the rope(!), in which case why didn't they manoeuvre her out from the rock face?

muki
1/08/2012
12:11:35 PM
Using slings as prusiks mean that they are always handy/at hand.
Those comical photos of a stuck rapeller are funny, keeping the prusik close to hand, ie not alowing it to be able to get out of reach, and also having the skills to navigate an overhang would have solved this problem, but I love it when a non life threatening situations allow a person to grow and learn from their mistakes, as an aside, footlocking seems to be a vanishing art ?

ajfclark
1/08/2012
12:15:09 PM
Indeed. I remember talking to her for a bit (that's me seconding on the right). Off hand I couldn't tell you for certain that someone was doing a fireman (it was almost 3 years ago now), but I'm pretty sure someone would've been.

I'm not sure if they tried manoeuvring from below, but the tension required might stop the device feeding at all?

[Edit: Looking at this image of where the abseil drops onto the midway ledge, it probably wouldn't have been easy to manoeuvre from below anyway:
]

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1/08/2012
12:32:25 PM
On 1/08/2012 ajfclark wrote:
>I'm not sure if they tried manoeuvring from below, but the tension required might stop the device feeding at all?

Sufficient tension from below would certainly do that, however that would be desirable while she sorted the prussik, ... though she would've still had the problem of taking her weight off the prussik enough for it to be sorted, while not being able to move up or down due tension in the rope!
~> One arm chinups while being ground anchored anyone?
;-)

muki
1/08/2012
12:37:54 PM
not if the new prusik was in the form of a foot loop, so as to stand up and deal with the prusik that was stuck above the roof.
thats why I said footlocking is a vanishing art, as this would have been another great way of solving her difficulty, if not fireman breaked, footlocking is impossible when a fireman break is on.

deadbudgy
1/08/2012
12:39:38 PM
Who climbs with only one prussik?

muki
1/08/2012
12:44:20 PM
On 1/08/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>@ Muki
>>bar tack
>
>I doubt that you or I would be happy to rely on a bar tack in the end
>of a cinch strap preventing an interesting circumstance in a climbing situation,
>... given that neither of us rig that way. ;-)
>(I note that you are not advocating that it would have). ☺
>~> I reckon that even bodyweight loading could strip a bar tacked cinch
>strap out of one of those buckles! ... and if that happened then the backup
>prussik would easily ride up into the abseil device.

I'm sure that by the time the buckle has loosened and opened up then this prusick is already in the belay device, ubless the device is set up remotley as in the diagram curtesy of WW, with a sling.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1/08/2012
12:50:27 PM
On 1/08/2012 deadbudgy wrote:
>Who climbs with only one prussik?

~> Check the size of the prussik ajf is carrying*.
(*Climber 2nding to the right of girl at overhang roof).
You only need one if it is that big!
Heh, heh, heh.

ajfclark
1/08/2012
12:52:10 PM
Some people climb with none and then borrow one when they realise might need it? I don't know the exact details in this instance.

Regardless, my point was that I couldn't see a way for this particular issue to occur going around this kind of feature if a lower prussic were used. I know most experienced people could get themselves out of this situation, but it seems to be easy to avoid in the first place by not using a prussic above the device when rapping around the lip of a roof. Note, I'm not saying a prussic above is bad (I do use it from time to time), just that in this particular environment it could be problematic.

ajfclark
1/08/2012
12:54:48 PM
On 1/08/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>~> Check the size of the prussik ajf is carrying*.

I also appear to be wearing a head torch in mid afternoon sun? Must've been climbing with egosan...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1/08/2012
12:56:48 PM
On 1/08/2012 ajfclark wrote:
>Some people climb with none and then borrow one when they realise might
>need it? I don't know the exact details in this instance.
>
>Regardless, my point was that I couldn't see a way for this particular
>issue to occur going around this kind of feature if a lower prussic were
>used. I know most experienced people could get themselves out of this
>situation, but it seems to be easy to avoid in the first place by not using
>a prussic above the device when rapping around the lip of a roof. Note,
>I'm not saying a prussic above is bad (I do use it from time to time),
>just that in this particular environment it could be problematic.

C'mon. How do you expect to have an internet argument discussion with that kind of attitude?
;-)

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 77
There are 77 messages in this topic.

 

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