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More on Rescue and Gear Shenanigans


ajfclark

3-Dec-2010
10:55:17 AM

I meant relative to a system where both prussics move up.

Hang on, do you ever have to reset a 1:1? 5 x 0 = 0...


evanbb

3-Dec-2010
10:56:21 AM

Can I just add that I think this picture represents a high point in the use of pictures on Chockstone?

The Submarine has been usurped.


ajfclark

3-Dec-2010
11:04:43 AM

He was worried the scanner didn't do a good enough job. I think it's fine.

One Day Hero

3-Dec-2010
11:43:19 AM

On 3/12/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>I was wondering how quickly you'd need to reset it with the pulleys running
>towards each other like that...

Yeah, its a hassle. Tiblocs make life easier, you can push the bottom one way down with your foot to give a good long run.

I've never tried hauling through a reverso, always assumed the drag would be horrible. Sounds like Patto has it sussed though, good to know it works. Getting the rope out of the reverso and onto the pulley (safely) is a pain.


ajfclark

3-Dec-2010
11:47:15 AM

I've set up hauls using an atc guide and think it works really well unless you have to lower someone after hauling them up a little. Yes there's more drag than if you had a pulley, but in terms of getting something set quickly, it's great and I find it locks far more easily than a prussic would so it needs less minding.

One Day Hero

3-Dec-2010
12:05:44 PM

Sweet, then all you need for this thing is 2 tiblocs.......and setup time will be 30 seconds. Kickarseness just went up another notch!

I'm not altering the drawing


wallwombat

3-Dec-2010
12:28:08 PM

Seems that with a couple of Tiblocs and one of these Petzl Ultralegere pulleys, that fits on a standard oval biner, you'd be able to rig a cool hauling system in a flash and the whole shebang would weigh next to nothing.

Cool!

mikllaw

3-Dec-2010
12:44:46 PM

One thing I saw yachting was 3mm spectra cord that seemed to hold about 20kN. So you could have a long sling of it that would never slip as a prussic/Munter mule etc, and it could live on your hanrness and weigh nothing.

What's the lighest mini traxion type device (pulley/cam) availble? ( given that it needn't take much load)

Wendy

3-Dec-2010
2:26:08 PM

On 3/12/2010 One Day Hero wrote:

>
>I've never tried hauling through a reverso, always assumed the drag would
>be horrible. Sounds like Patto has it sussed though, good to know it works.
>Getting the rope out of the reverso and onto the pulley (safely) is a pain.

i found hauling through a reverso added heaps of friction. I tend to have a gri gri or cinch. it's probably not recommended in the manufacturers instructions, but it does work.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

3-Dec-2010
3:24:41 PM

One Day Hero drew:

On 3/12/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>>I was wondering how quickly you'd need to reset it with the pulleys running
>>towards each other like that...
>
>Yeah, its a hassle. Tiblocs make life easier, you can push the bottom
>one way down with your foot to give a good long run.
>
It seems that ODH's 5:1 haul system is identical to what I have been using on haulbags while walling, the difference being likely that he thought it out, while I stumbled on it by accident/necessity after setting up a 3:1 with a redirectional and then experimenting.

I use an upside down jumar with a pulley attached to it for the lowest point, and find that its weight lets it slide down (sometimes with a little jiggling), pretty much as far as you have spare rope to lower it, and this decreases reset times by heaps!

>I've never tried hauling through a reverso, always assumed the drag would
>be horrible. Sounds like Patto has it sussed though, good to know it works.
>Getting the rope out of the reverso and onto the pulley (safely) is a pain.

Likewise getting heavy haulbags off the haul and past the cinched tight pulley system, onto the anchor!
☺

mikllaw wrote:
>What's the lighest mini traxion type device (pulley/cam) availble? ( given that it needn't take much load)

Those fancy DMM revolver karabiners with the built in pulley to minimise rope drag?

One Day Hero

4-Dec-2010
12:25:15 AM

Anyway, I've always thought this to be a bit of a solution to a problem which will never crop up.

Injured person on 95% of routes in Oz = rescue downwards

Seriously injured person at Point Perp = lower to the ledge, do 1st aid, and call the cavalry

Seriously injured person midway up Buff Gorge or the Grose = good luck with that, might be best to abandon them on a ledge and go for help............maybe haul them up to you if you're on a ledge. Of course you'll have to rap, clean the runners, and jumar first

Mildly injured person (Evan and his shoulder) = rap and walk out, unless you're at Point Perp.......then do an assisted haul (he's got one good arm) and make him promise beer in return for your effort

Better to learn good techniques for assisted abseil, down-prussiking loaded ropes, etc. which will be needed for down-rescueing

hargs

4-Dec-2010
7:51:40 AM

>What's the lighest mini traxion type device (pulley/cam) availble?

Kong's Futura Mini block is 162g.

If you don't need a pulley, then a tiblock with the rope bent around the biner will work. If you do need a pulley, hang a proper pulley -- one in a casing with eyes for hanging -- inside an oval biner (i.e., off the top of the biner) and attach the tibloc (to the bottom of the biner.) Suspend the whole thing from a locker clipped to the pulley biner (i.e., between the pulley's sideplates).

Replace the Basic ascender in that last diagram with a tibloc. Most (thin) lightweight pulleys will work. A Petzl Fixe doesn't fit inside many oval biners; it fits in a Petzl OK -- but only just, it's not ideal -- but it doesn't go anywhere near my BD ovals.


wallwombat

4-Dec-2010
8:26:00 AM

I still think those Petzl Ultralegere emergency pulleys are the go for impromptu hauling on a route - they retail for about $4 US and weigh nothing. Not many people lead free climbs with a proper pulley hanging from their harness. One or two of those little buggers could easily live on a screwgate oval biner with a couple of tiblocs, on the back of your harness and you'd hardly notice it.

You could wear it to the gym and look really cool.

hargs

4-Dec-2010
8:36:55 AM

>I still think those Petzl Ultralegere emergency pulleys are the go for
>impromptu hauling on a route -

The trouble with the loose pulley -- it isn't much trouble -- is that you need one biner for the pulley, another for the tibloc, and a short sling to hang the tiblock under the pulley. I really like the compactness of the single pulley/biner/tiblock arrangement.

Richard Delaney

4-Dec-2010
8:45:48 AM

I persevered with one of those little plastic petzl pulleys for a while - and hate them.
They only work on the right biner - anything else and the rope falls off to one side. So then, rather than being just a pulley, its a pulley + dedicated biner. I just carry one rock exotica (now petzl make them) small blue sealed bearing prusik minding pulley and 3 prusiks - that can work out most problems. I'll take the heavier pulley and the verisitility of the prusiks - tiblocs are fun and efficient but also one trick ponies - very difficult to move the opposite direction and don't go on double ropes.

We have been discussing two different types of setups- one that is set up to haul, and the other which is set mid-way through belaying a second up a pitch - possibly with the rope already under tension. In the later, you are pretty much stuck with the rope running through whatever belay device you use as your top pulley.

hargs

4-Dec-2010
9:02:10 AM

On 4/12/2010 Richard Delaney wrote:
>I persevered with one of those little plastic petzl pulleys for a while
>- and hate them.

Me too. In the end I used it on a flying fox we rigged out of a tree, across the yard and into the pool. Melted the crap out of it first go. Which is how I ended up with heavier metal pulleys that turn out to be useful for all kinds of things.

> ... - tiblocs are fun and efficient but also one trick ponies - very
>difficult to move the opposite direction and don't go on double ropes.

Yes, but you can use that one trick in lots of situations: ascending, hauling, escaping belays... and they're not that difficult to move in the opposite direction once you get the hang of them.

>We have been discussing two different types of setups- one that is set
>up to haul, and the other which is set mid-way through belaying a second
>up a pitch - possibly with the rope already under tension. In the later,
>you are pretty much stuck with the rope running through whatever belay
>device you use as your top pulley.

Once you're out of the system, you can rig the rope whichever way makes most sense.

Richard Delaney

4-Dec-2010
9:09:14 AM

From years of guiding, I found the most common scenario was that, somehow, regardless of all the effort and coaxing, people convince themselves they just can't do that one move. Having a system you can chuck on, haul them up 2m, and then whip off and return to normal belaying is the one I used most. For me, this was grigri, said pulley, and prusik (or tibloc). I agree tiblocs can be run back down the rope but it can be quite hard wihtout practice or on old fluffy.

Wendy

4-Dec-2010
11:46:31 AM

On 4/12/2010 Richard Delaney wrote:
>From years of guiding, I found the most common scenario was that, somehow,
>regardless of all the effort and coaxing, people convince themselves they
>just can't do that one move. Having a system you can chuck on, haul them
>up 2m, and then whip off and return to normal belaying is the one I used
>most.

ditto. belay with grigri or cinch straight off the belay in a good position for any potential drama resolution, whip out a prussic/tibloc/ropeman and whack on a basic z for helping hand hauling, add the extra z as per bodgy diagram when serious hauling is necessary (not that often fortuneately). It also gets an abseiller's weight off the abseil rope if you are top belaying without a releasable system, which i do most of the time, because it's quicker to avoid any issues in the 1st place and deal with any that somehow sneak in with a quick haul once in a blue moon. i've never bothered with pulleys. seems to work fine without them and it's just another thing to carry and set up. And for serious dramas/injuries, i'm with odh, the down option is highly likely to be the best and the easiest. failing that, the reinforcements option.

dmnz

6-Dec-2010
8:37:21 AM

On 3/12/2010 widewetandslippery wrote:
>I'd say 5 times more than if it was a 1:1 system.

yep gotta make sure you have enough rope to use the system though, ie enough left on your end, so if the leader has climbed out a fair way already...

stev_e

28-Oct-2011
9:55:37 AM

Sorry for bumping up an old thread
Just wondering if someone could tell me how this diagram is a 5:1
I keep calculating it as only 4:1

There are 71 messages in this topic.