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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 1 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 111
Author
The big trad gear destructo challenge
mikllaw
21/10/2010
12:59:13 PM
Id like to test trad gear in real placements, get a variety of people to place gear and rate it out of 10 and see how much it actually holds, I suspect experienced people might be more accurate than noobs, and cams might be a bit variable too.

The variables we'd need to collect would be (I think)
Climber
Years experience (total)
Years experience (trad)
Gear placed
Rock type and strength estimate
Placement Rating ( /10)

then test and collect

Failure strength (kN)
failure mode
along with copious photgraphs

Anything else you can think of would be good. I think to make the test useful each climber would have to place at least 5 pieces.

If anyone has pieces which are still strong, but that you don't mind destroying that would be great, I'll also need some people to place gear at all levels of experience. It would have to be done on non climbing areas, though i don't see much damage being done to the rock. The rig is NSW for the next months and I hope to ship it of to Victoria over Xmas
hargs
21/10/2010
2:04:06 PM
I've got some (retired, but probably OK) vintage hexes I'm happy to contribute, or are you looking for current gear?
gfdonc
21/10/2010
2:16:28 PM
Yup. There's a box in the cupboard. Some old stoppers, certainly a hex or two, and probably an old rigid Friend (series 1) for comparison.

Let me know your Vic plans, or I'll ship gear up to you.

Hendo
21/10/2010
2:17:37 PM
I would be very interested in coming along, I have access to noobs as well.

It might not be feasible due to limitations on amount of data that can be collected but i'll throw out some ideas to toss around. Some real climbing situation variables could be placing gear blind and or under stress, clipping the gear and giving it a wiggle to simulate some rope drag shifting the gear a bit, equalizing bad gear, rip equalized pieces/3 piece anchors and the differences between cordelette/sliding x/rope/other configurations, differences between passive and active gear in flakes...maybe some placed knots?

I have done a very small amount of 'testing' of some old HB cams, in one case the surface of the rock (sandstone near Berowra) sheared and caused the cam to pull, so there could be some rock damage. In another case bending of the axle and the change in lobe contact caused it to pull. I have a partly mangled 2.5 HB quadcam you could use.

Eduardo Slabofvic
21/10/2010
2:26:47 PM
A nice idea. Another variant would be to test the same piece in different rock. Such as compare/contrast the cam in granite vs. Limestone, or the two axle cam to the 1 axle cam.

Also noting different brand wires have different thickness cable, although I think the answer there may be kind of obvious, knowing the difference could be handy.

I also note that you seem to use chain, and, I assume, some kind of static load. Have you tried shock loading? Also, shock loading with some dynamic rope in the system?

garbie
21/10/2010
2:30:41 PM
I can bring one of those dodgy ukrainian cams Mike. Haven't been game to use it.

climbertron
21/10/2010
2:30:56 PM
I am very interested in coming along and I would say that I qualify as a noob. I'm in Sydney.

ambyeok
21/10/2010
3:27:49 PM
To get a realistic test you will need to get your noobs to place their gear under pressure. I suggest either a snarling dog a la guantanmo style, a running chainsaw, or dip their leg in honey and make them place their gear standing over a smoking fire ants nest. There are many other good options for this.

IMO there are too many variables to enable any significant conclusion. Allow me to save you time, effort and destruction of expensive climbing gear (which could make a great loaner rack):

1. Noobs generally place shit gear
2. Experienced climbers generally place good gear
3. Sometimes noobs will place good gear
4. Some experience climbers will place shit gear
5. Small pieces pull through in soft rock
6. Cams can pull from glassy or flaring placements
7. etc. ad infinitum........

Ok, so now I have got that off my chest.... it does sound like fun.

I have a crappy middle size nut that I stole from simeys house a while back that I would be happy to give you.
simone
21/10/2010
3:52:42 PM
On 21/10/2010 ambyeok wrote:
>I have a crappy middle size nut that I stole from simeys house a while
>back that I would be happy to give you.

If that is my favourite blue #4 rock, the only piece I ever bought, as the rest of my rack is made up from (nubile, no, scratch that), noobie booty gear, then you are dead meat amoebashock.

Superstu
21/10/2010
6:15:31 PM
Why do we need a rig to test ? Wouldn't it be simpler to...

(i) let noob lead a relatively straight up climb
(ii) when noob reaches top, throw noob off
(iii) count number of pieces that pop before noob stops (or craters)
(iv) repeat 5 times
(v) repeat same sequence with experienced tradster, sport climber, natimuk pumpkin, etc

If this doesn't pass the ethics committee, substitute noob with goat / big chicken / random overseas climber camping at the pines / whatever.

Chuck Norris
21/10/2010
7:26:57 PM
I assume youre looking to find whether experienced climbers are better at *assessing* rather than placing gear I'd say a better setup for the experiment would be for you to place say 20 pieces and then get as many people as you can with various experience to rate each piece (15 seconds per piece to form opinion?).

Then test each placement to failure. As well as variables you mention you should ask for mode of failure (gear break, gear distort, rock distort, rock failure)

You'd get much more data and would be easier to correct for biases (individuals natural conservatism etc)

[post edit...if you want to test whether experienced climbers are better at placing gear than newbies then you need a different experiment - point is don't conflate the two concepts in the one experiment]
dave
21/10/2010
8:56:21 PM
I have a cam i found and dont trust (and maybe some nuts and biners too). Let me know where to post them to, if you're interested.
crm114
21/10/2010
9:08:26 PM
Yeah, I reckon Stugang is onto something.

Might also need less gear all up though that would defeat the purpose of getting to kill a lot of gear!

Chuck Norris
21/10/2010
10:03:04 PM
Also - as well as a strength rating getting everyone to rank (I.e remove ties from the data) all the pieces for pull out strength would be useful

crm114
21/10/2010
10:42:05 PM
Also, and I may be getting ahead of myself here, if you REALLY want to get maximum coverage, you might consider posting photos or short video snippets (panning around the piece etc).

Even if you put the video/photo group in a different 'cohort' for the stats for the non-net people, you would get a larger number of people. With a new-ish (13 month old) baby, I would love to take part in placing and killing gear but not likely to get out there.


Adrian

IdratherbeclimbingM9
21/10/2010
10:58:09 PM
On 21/10/2010 mikllaw wrote:
>Id like to test trad gear in real placements, get a variety of people
>to place gear and rate it out of 10 and see how much it actually holds,
>I suspect experienced people might be more accurate than noobs, and cams
>might be a bit variable too.
>

Tell us mikl, ...

Have you got your myth-buster numberplates made up yet?

Is this a secret filming session, like, 'Smile - You're on Candid Camera'?

Will the film/results be shown in Croatia?

Heh, heh, heh.
mikllaw
22/10/2010
8:10:39 AM
On 21/10/2010 stugang wrote:
>I assume youre looking to find whether experienced climbers are better
>at *assessing* rather than placing gear I'd say a better setup for the
>experiment would be for you to place say 20 pieces and then get as many
>people as you can with various experience to rate each piece (

>[post edit...if you want to test whether experienced climbers are better
>at placing gear than newbies then you need a different experiment - point
>is don't conflate the two concepts in the one experiment]

Great idea
Maybe get, say, 5 climbers to each place 5 pieces, then all rates all the gear (incl. their own).
mikllaw
22/10/2010
8:17:53 AM
SO-
I will have a trad gear day in NSW before Xmas, then the rig's off to Victoria for 2 months. Will anyone put their hand up to orgainse a trddstrct ( I was worried whether the browser would let that through) day down there?

Find a "non-cliff" with lots of placements (at least 25) and typical rock, small. It's easier if it's a flat rock in terms of lugging the rig around, but the placements may not be typical of cliffs. You ned to make anchors that are bomber to test from, I've been sliding X to 2 pieces so trad is fine fopr the anchors, or else place a few bolts before-hand.

Then it's proabably off to WA.
mikllaw
22/10/2010
12:42:03 PM
On 21/10/2010 Hendo wrote:
> I have access to noobs

!
mikllaw
28/10/2010
2:07:51 PM
What could be better a better way to spend a wet Sunday morning in Sydney? Im after 3 people to place and test a few pieces of trad gear each. The test zone is in the Shire. Does anyone with between some and lots of trad climbing experience have a few hours to spare? I have some gear, but if you have a few ancient pieces you dont mind destroying that would be great.

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