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5:19:38 PM |
On 15/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote: >Why is the belayer standing back from the wall in the first place? If >you stand in to start with, there's no slap and no drama Doesn't have to be standing back (although I agree that's bad and is also to be avoided). The Petzl catalogue illustrates a scenario where belayers might be pulled into low roofs. >I don't recall any of the belayers in Hard Grit being tied down......I >think they tend to bolt backwards to remove rope from the system, bit hard >to do that if you're on a leash So you think we should base our behaviour while climbing on the practices shown in Hard Grit? If you're climbing Grit or rock with similar opportunities for protection, the fair enough. But I don't think the majority of Chockstoners are. Happy to be corrected though. I'm talking about falls in the first 6-8m of a route, where falls produce higher impact forces because there is less rope in the system. In those scenarios any force on the belayer will be higher than a fall higher on the route which is reasonably protected. Given a choice between a harder catch and hitting the ground I'd choose a harder catch. I'm comfortable that I can adequately assess when it's appropriate to anchor myself. The real reason I wanted to push back on your original post is because I think it was overly simplistic, and that some readers who didn't know better might get the wrong idea. |
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6:58:51 PM |
On 16/10/2010 dave h. wrote: >On 15/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote: > >>Why is the belayer standing back from the wall in the first place? If >>you stand in to start with, there's no slap and no drama > >Doesn't have to be standing back (although I agree that's bad and is also >to be avoided). The Petzl catalogue illustrates a scenario where belayers >might be pulled into low roofs. > > >>I don't recall any of the belayers in Hard Grit being tied down......I >>think they tend to bolt backwards to remove rope from the system, bit >hard >>to do that if you're on a leash > >So you think we should base our behaviour while climbing on the practices >shown in Hard Grit? If you're climbing Grit or rock with similar opportunities >for protection, the fair enough. But I don't think the majority of Chockstoners >are. Happy to be corrected though. > >I'm talking about falls in the first 6-8m of a route, where falls produce >higher impact forces because there is less rope in the system. In those >scenarios any force on the belayer will be higher than a fall higher on >the route which is reasonably protected. > >Given a choice between a harder catch and hitting the ground I'd choose >a harder catch. > > >I'm comfortable that I can adequately assess when it's appropriate to >anchor myself. The real reason I wanted to push back on your original post >is because I think it was overly simplistic, and that some readers who >didn't know better might get the wrong idea. Have to completely agree with ODH here. Unless the belayer weighs a feather there should be enough friction to stop them hitting the ground. The only way I can see for a leader actually decking is if the first bolt is like 5m off the ground and they fall from like 8m. Then there wont be enough friction. When does that ever happen though? |
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9:14:46 PM |
Every situation is different and it's always up to the individuals (both the belayer and the leader) whether they want the belayer to be leashed to something or not. Why would someone be belaying on a slopey ground not directly underneath the first piece? One reason I can think of is because the first couple of moves are a traverse and it may be impractical to belay from below. An example I can remember is the climb "Little Red Riding Hood" (LRRH) at Pt Perp which starts from a pretty big belay ledge (big enough, I reckon, for most people not bothering to build an anchor for climbs that go straight up). However, the first ~10m of LRRH is a traverse over nothing but the sea roughly 60m below you, and the ledge is pretty slopey towards the edge. I remember belaying someone significantly LIGHTER that myself (I'm a 90+ kg fatso for those that don't know me) and decided to tie into the rope we rapped down (with a redirect in the corner crack) to prevent myself being pulled over the edge. That decision turned out to be justified as when he was about to top out, he fell and the last piece that was clipped was the only carrot bolt on the route, ~5 m below him (yes he could have placed one more piece before topping out, but he didn't). Since it starts as a traverse, the pull I felt was quite large (no gravity to help me here...), and was pulled about a meter before the rope became taut. I'm fairly sure that if I didn't tie into the rap rope I would have been hanging ~60 m above the crashing waves below. Being a fatso, I would not have been pulled towards the first piece of gear, I would have been just pulled off the edge of the platform hanging in free space far away from the platform and possibly below it, so tying in prevented the situation from becoming more complicated than it had to be. You could argue that he could have placed a piece above the ledge but that would be practically the same as tying myself to an anchor with a little extra rope drag. Now granted not every climb is going to be like that, but if the belayer feels more comfortable being leashed there's nothing wrong with that. The catch maybe slightly harder but, if your using dynamic ropes, I doubt it'll cause any injuries or cause any other complications that may affect your climb. |
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12:11:52 PM |
Yet another belay device. http://www.climbingtechnology.it/en-US/clickupen.html |
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12:18:46 PM |
I'm usually lighter than the people I climb with (~50kg vs ~80kg, I presume 30kg is a substantial difference.). My concern is that the leader will deck (because of the difference in weight) if they fall between say the 1st and 2nd bolt. With that in mind I tend to not have heaps of slack out when belaying a (sport) leader, especially at the start of a climb and I try to be fairly close to wall OR if it is available I have something anchoring me to the ground (i wear a helmet so i figure small stones or falling gear probably won't knock me out.) Is this completely mis-guided? What is good practice for 'light-weight' belayers? Any links or articles on this would be really appreciated. Cheers |
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6:34:36 PM |
On 16/10/2010 ET wrote: > >An example I can remember is the climb "Little Red Riding Hood" As with the last person who tried to construct a poxy example using Kachoong, you were belaying on a ledge with your climber traversing out over a drop. In this scenario, you don't need to be tied to the ground in order to prevent lifting.....you need to build a fuching belay to prevent everyone from dying!!! Christ, you have to use your head! Some 'multipitch' routes don't require a belay built at the start of pitches because the pitch begins off a massive terrace. Some single pitch routes require a belay built at the bottom, cause they start in positions which are very exposed and dangerous. The subject of this discussion was building an upwards anchor to prevent a belayer on safe, flat ground being lifted up a meter or two "because its weally scawey". I was taught to do this when I started, quickly called bullshit on it, and have never done it since. No good climbers I know ever do this, the only people I ever see doing it seem to be total numptys..........I guess I can understand why a walking skeleton like Hidetaka Suzuki might want to do it. |
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8:59:24 PM |
Fair point, but let me ask you this. If you walked past a stranger with their hands off the belay device whilst their leader was struggling on a climb, would you tap them on the shoulder and at least tell them that they need to hold the belay device? Any decent person would most likely tell them what they were doing was dangerous and I suspect a lot of us would grab the brake end of the rope if their leader was really struggling. Now if I asked the same question again, except instead of poor belaying techniques the belayer is now leashed to the ground, would you stop and tell them what they are doing is dangerous? If being leashed to the ground isn't dangerous for the leader, doesn't inconvenience the leader and doesn't affect people in the immediate vicinity of the belayer then what do you have against someone leashing themselves onto the ground? As far as I can tell, your tirades are mainly based around two points. 1) The belayer should just harden up. 2) The belayer catches the leader harder. In regards to the first point, some people let go of the rope when suprised it's their instinct. Some people just feel more secure leashed. Does it affect you? Maybe, you don't know how someone reacts instinctively until something happens, and by then it usually too late. The belayer IS making the climb safer for the leader by leashing themselves to the ground if all they are doing is making themselves feel more comfortable. They can concentrate on on belaying and not on how to protect themselves if they are pulled towards the wall or how bad the cheese grating will be if the slide up the wall... In regards to the second point, this is a little bit more complicated. On good rock and good pro, I doubt anyone has been injured by a hard catch. I've had less than a handful of lead falls, but each time I was caught by someone leashed and I can tell you I barely felt anything (a soft catch on my last one would have probably ended with my head swinging into a rest ledge when I inverted...). On crappy rock or crappy pro, a hard catch may pull out gear and which can complicated things (ground fall, loose rock falling, etc.). In this case, it's up to the leader to tell the belayer that s/he doesn't feel safe with him/her being leashed to the ground. In any case it's quite common, at least in my experience, for leaders to communicate with the belayer and say stuff like "watch me" when they're feeling shakey or "last piece is marginal" or "the rock here is chossy" followed by "I want a soft catch if I fall here". The leader may not say anything at all or give any indication that s/he is about to fall... In some situations the leader may have just climbed a couple meters from a fairly large which they maybe in risk of hitting on a fall (and may state they prefer a hard catch in the given situation). In this case the leader gets to decide whether a hard or soft catch is appropriate and if the leader states he wants a hard catch (or doesn't say anything, but it can be seen by the belayer that a hard catch is safer) then it's preferable for a lightweight belayer to be leashed to an anchor (and disconnect it if a soft catch is required as dave h. mentioned). As I stated before, every situation is different and it's up to the individuals to decide whether or not the belayer needs an anchor. No one is the same, so it's pointless to tell everyone to harden up and sometimes a hard catch maybe safer than a soft catch... not every climb in the world is overhung and not every lead fall just goes in to free space. As you stated before, you have to use your head (and evaluate the situation). Not everyone is a "total numpty" if they choose to be anchored to the ground. Just because it maybe perfectly safe not to be anchored doesn't mean it's unsafe to be anchored. If it doesn't affect you or anyone else and they feel more comfortable with a ground anchor, why should you care? |
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9:15:06 PM |
>On good rock and good pro, I doubt anyone has been injured by a hard catch. A hard catch may prevent you from decking or hitting a ledge, but it may cause you to injure yourself in other ways. Whipping quickly into the wall may give you ankle injuries, and i've a friend who actually got an inguinal hernia from an excessively hard catch. Right catch for the right circumstances.. |
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7:28:26 AM |
I know of a couple of talus fractures through hard catches. Bad injury. | |||||
8:17:16 AM |
i've got a friend with a back injury from a hard catch too. But then again, I almost never get a soft catch because as a little person, unless I'm climbing with someone a similar size, my belayer moves about a mm when i come off. Some belayers know how to give a soft catch in this situation and many don't. But back to the should little people tie down question - pretty much if I'm belaying in a position where I wouldn't want to be tied in for my safety, I won't tie down to belay. I might get pulled off the ground a bit, but I've never had anyone hit the ground from it. A lot of beginner belayers freak out at just having a little weight taken and want to let go of the brake rope no matter how much you reinforce it. They don't prepare themselves with a solid stance and use their legs to stop themselves faceplanting the rock rather than their arms. I wouldn't start out teaching a midget with Simey about to plummet onto the rope, but with a little instruction and practice, little people can belay bigger people just fine. It's almost like learning to fall itself. Most tie ins that I see have so much slack in them or are in such pisspoor directions as to be useless anyway. I'd rather be free to move around, be ready to get out of the way, redirect the rope, help the climber pull back up or pull through moves, fetch the gear they didn't realise they wanted, get to my jumper or water, into the shade/sun etc etc. As an aside, I see plenty of weird belaying out there - usually in the schools of way too casual and way too paranoid. |
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9:20:06 AM |
On 16/10/2010 Olbert wrote: >Unless the belayer weighs a feather >there should be enough friction to stop them hitting the ground. The only >way I can see for a leader actually decking is if the first bolt is like >5m off the ground and they fall from like 8m. Then there wont be enough >friction. When does that ever happen though? I've had something like this happen twice. Both times I was belaying the same leader and he fell while trying to clip second or third bolt. I wasn't anchored, he weighed at least 20kg more than me, and so when he fell I ended up at the first draw and he landed on the ground. He was a bit shocked about it the first time, and so was I. We had both had a good laugh when it happened again a few years later. He wasn't injured either time, and I think I may have had a couple of scratches from the second occasion. I guess that, unless there's a HUGE weight difference, if you manage to pull your belayer off the ground in a fall, that's taken out a lot of the force out of the fall.So hitting the ground because your belayer isn't tied down may not be that big a deal. Now I'm curious, who's had a similar experience, and what was the outcome? |
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12:29:07 PM |
'In regards to the first point, some people let go of the rope when suprised it's their instinct" Then they should not belay, simple as that. All I expect of a new belayer is to keep hold of the brake rope. Anything after that is nice. If they can't do that, then they ain't never gonna belay me or anybody I care about again. |
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1:21:10 PM |
I used to climb with this guy who is so large, that if you didn't tie down, you would be ripped off the ground and extruded through the first quickdraw. | |||||
1:29:32 PM |
On 19/10/2010 rightarmbad wrote: > >If they can't do that, then they ain't never gonna belay me or anybody >I care about again. Ex-farkin-zactly! It isn't awefully p.c. to say this, but some people just shouldn't be climbing. I know a few folk who have been rather badly injured by inept belayers, and all the anchoring in the world wouldn't have fixed the problem. |
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2:23:00 PM |
On 16/10/2010 dave h. wrote: >The extra fall distance introduced by the belayer being pulled upwards could cause the leader to deck. ....then....... >So you think we should base our behaviour while climbing on the practices >shown in Hard Grit? >Happy to be corrected though. Good, allow me to correct you. If there's a real possibility of the leader hitting the deck, then gritstone belay tactics are absolutely the go! It doesn't matter if its E9 or 19, once the leader is in deckout territory the belayer response should be exactly the same for both routes. I reckon that diving backwards while sucking an armful of rope is more effective than just standing there tied to a boulder........it seems like the gritstone wierdos have come to the same conclusion. |
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2:26:42 PM |
On 18/10/2010 ET wrote: >I've had less than a handful of lead falls,............ With all due respect, this is like someone who's had 'less than a handful of roots' lecturing on the best techniques for great sex! I've had more leadfalls than I can count.......on many, many different cliffs.........;) |
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3:17:42 PM |
On 18/10/2010 ricomonster wrote: >A hard catch may prevent you from decking or hitting a ledge, but it may >cause you to injure yourself in other ways. Whipping quickly into the wall >may give you ankle injuries, and i've a friend who actually got an inguinal >hernia from an excessively hard catch. Right catch for the right circumstances.. Fair enough, hard catches can cause injuries even with good pro. It's upto the leader (if s/he know's a fall is imminent) and the belayer to decide what catch is right for the situation. On 19/10/2010 rightarmbad wrote: >Then they should not belay, simple as that. >All I expect of a new belayer is to keep hold of the brake rope. >Anything after that is nice. > >If they can't do that, then they ain't never gonna belay me or anybody >I care about again. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. However, you don't know how someone reacts when taken completely off guard until something happens, which by then it's usually too late. When new belayers are taught (at the gym or outdoors), someone is usually on the ground to supervise. But when the leader is told to fall, the new belayer has PLENTY of time to think (and usually asked if their ready or not) and do as they were instructed. That reaction could very well be the same when caught offguard, but I'm sure in many cases they will do something different than instructed. When you bring a new climber outdoors, you may tell them not to look up if someone shouts "rock!" (depending on where you bring them...). What happens when when someone does call out rock? In a lot, if not most, cases that person will still instinctively look up to see who was shouting. You can condition yourself to react in a different manner after sometime, as I sure most of you have and in this particular case you can tell how people will react because this event happens quite often and looking up USUALLY ends with no serious consequences. Then there's also the cases of people grabbing the rope when falling one of the other threads even though they know not to grab the rope... However, how many of you can say you've caught more than a handful of lead falls with NO INDICATION that the leader was about to fall? i.e. The leader looks strong (or is out of sight), no wobblies, doesn't say something like "oh this is interesting" and you probably only have one hand on the break end with the other still feeding rope out. My guess on those who say they have caught more than a handful of these falls have had several years of climbing experience and a lot more than me personally. I've only had to catch someone who didn't indicated they were about to fall in any fashion (no wobblies, appear to be on "good" holds, etc.) twice in my three years of climbing, both of which happened within the past year. In both cases I was in the middle of feeding rope before realising they were falling and locking off. In both cases however, the leader was significantly lighter than myself. I locked off the rope and that was the end, virtually no lifting and no other dramas. After 3 years though, I don't know how I would react in the case of a fall big enough to lift and happens sudden enough that I don't have time to think. I remember a story that was told to me by a person (sorry bad with names... all I remember is he's a MD in Newcastle... I think) teaching me to climb outdoors. Anyway, an abbreviated story goes that he took a larger whipper then he thought he would because his belayer DIDN'T lock off the rope. He had held it up and tried to pull even though this was an experienced climber who KNEW how to operate his belay device correctly. Anyway my point is, you can tell someone you don't want them to belay you because you know they're not going to catch if caught off guard, however you can only tell there not going to do that after something has happened and that possibly occurs after a serious incident. In my opinion it's better to prevent that situation from occuring in the first place. If the practice isn't unsafe (in the given situation) and it makes the person feel more comfortable, then let them do so. Do you (publicly...) tell religous soldiers not to pray to their deity before being sent out to the battlefield because they're idiots if they do so? Or do we just climb with people with more than 10 years climbing experience only and know in the past they've caught more than 100 lead falls and more than 10 that were completely unexpected? Just don't introduce anyone new to climbing... |
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3:18:00 PM |
On 19/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote: >With all due respect, this is like someone who's had 'less than a handful >of roots' lecturing on the best techniques for great sex! > >I've had more leadfalls than I can count.......on many, many different >cliffs.........;) I'm not claiming my technique is the best (nor have I claimed that your's is wrong)... In fact I haven't even stated whether or not I anchor myself to the ground or not to prevent lifting... though you can probably gather that I don't since I weigh more than most... I don't think I've ever had to belay someone heavier than myself on lead, only on top rope... All I have stated (in a very convoluted way) is if something works for someone else and it isn't causing or going to cause any problems, then there's no reason to tell them to change it. |
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3:23:02 PM |
But we all anchor down on multi-pitch, don't we? So it can't be a bad thing. And it's perhaps a good thing to be consistent i.e. same situation on pitch 1 as pitch 5. If (on the ground) I feel the need to walk around I set the anchor up so I'm attached with a separate screwgate - then I can unclip if need be while still being on belay. To take Saturday's example, I started untethered so I could spot the leader before the first clip, then stepped back and clipped in to the ground anchor which offered a better view of the rest of the route. |
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3:36:32 PM |
you have to anchor on multi-pitch, there's not an option not to (unless you somehow balance mid way up unanchored as your leader starts to climb without being clipped as well and then both fall to your deaths)? |
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