Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Author

No good belay devices yet?

AndyRicho

13-Oct-2010
10:34:06 PM

I think that there's a lot of good belay devices, but there's a lot of bad belayers! A good belayer should give confidence, slack when needed and keep you safe.


Chuck Norris

13-Oct-2010
10:56:14 PM

On 13/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote:

>
>I've always wondered about people who lash themselves to the ground to
>belay..........I suspect they are mostly wierdo's who don't have a clue.
>My girlfriend is 20kg lighter than me and catches whippers just fine. She'll
>get lifted off the ground about a meter or so, but so what? Getting pulled
>a meter off the ground isn't a major drama for non-wierdo's.

I spent a few weeks climbing with Hidetaka Suzuki at araps and he ALWAYS bolted himself down with at least 5 pieces of multi directional equalised anchors when he belayed. I'm not sure how much he weighed but his knees were the fattest part of his legs. Somewhere i have a shopping list he gave me for one weeks supply of food at Araps....if I find it i'll scan it and post it...but one word summarises it....scary......


The good Dr

14-Oct-2010
7:40:48 AM

On 13/10/2010 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>Eddy ?? not sure on the spelling seems to be a safe beginer auto locker.
>They are compulsory for lead beley's at my local gym and take a little
>getting used to but you feed them like an ATC, you cannot hold them down
>like a gri gri and the handle used to lower from only works if your in
>control, i.e let go it re-locks or pull it too hard and it re-locks, it
>only lowers in the half position (handle pulled halfway back)
>
>I thought when i first started using it that the device is much harder
>to feed without it autolocking, but with the right size rope and practise
>it's quite easy. I still use a gri gri basically becuase i own one and
>never had a problem with it, but the eddy does seem to be a "fool" proof
>autobeley device... ; )
>
>
The Eddy does not get much press but are reasonably good devices. A bit harder to feed as the cam is more eccentric than the Gri-Gri and catches a bit easier when you try to feed rope fast. Takes a bit of practice. The more eccentric cam makes it much harder to hold the cam down with your thumb when the rope is weighted as the leverage is greater. The fail safe on the handle is good, though you lose a bit of feel as there is extra mechanical isolation from the rope. They are also a fair bit heavier than the Gri-Gri. The weight issue seems to put prople off for some unknown reason. They also load in the opposite direction to the Gri-Gri which seems to confuse the Gri-Gri lovers. The handle is solid metal unlike the plastic handle on other devices.

I have used mine for a number of years and prefer it over the Gri-Gri (which I have also used extensively). It is not completely idiot proof, but does answer a number of concerns that the Gri-Gri has as well as poking fun at the Gri-Gri (gregory) with the name.

One Day Hero

15-Oct-2010
1:29:39 PM

On 13/10/2010 climbertron wrote:
>I was taught recently to lash myself in the case of an imbalanced weight
>ratio. I always thought that it was because if you are pulled up and swing
>awkwardly into the wall, you might bump yourself in such a way that your
>brake hand loses control.

If you stand roughly below the first piece, you will be pulled roughly upwards in the event of a fall........just practice and learn how to deal with it, it helps to give a softer catch too.

If you let go of the brake hand due to a bump, whilst still conscious, you are a shit belayer

One Day Hero

15-Oct-2010
1:31:06 PM

On 13/10/2010 stugang wrote:
>Somewhere i have a shopping list he
>gave me for one weeks supply of food at Araps....if I find it i'll scan
>it and post it...but one word summarises it....scary......
>
cool, anorexia in climbers is hilarious

widewetandslippery

15-Oct-2010
1:39:59 PM

No good belay devices? What about the missus?


dave h.

15-Oct-2010
2:43:13 PM

On 15/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote:

>If you let go of the brake hand due to a bump, whilst still conscious,
>you are a shit belayer

Criticising other belayers who take additional steps to safeguard their leader makes you the worse belayer.

There are bumps into walls, and then there are *bumps* into walls. While a leader falling high on a route (with good pro not too far below) isn't going to bang you into a wall too hard, seems to me that a fall between the first or second bolt is more likely to pull a belayer into a wall hard. And what about heavier leaders with lighter belayers who fall at the second bolt? The extra fall distance introduced by the belayer being pulled upwards could cause the leader to deck.

While anchoring mightn't be necessary (I think I'd hold on even if I got a reasonable whallop) I think it's a good idea in some circumstances. Once the danger of a high impact force fall is over the belayer can always unclip from the anchor.


ajfclark

15-Oct-2010
2:55:34 PM

On 15/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>If you stand roughly below the first piece, you will be pulled roughly upwards in the event of a fall........just practice and learn how to deal with it, it helps to give a softer catch too.

What about if you're belaying someone on Kachoong for instance? The first piece is around the corner out over the void. Are you still happy not being anchored?

One Day Hero

15-Oct-2010
3:00:44 PM

On 15/10/2010 dave h. wrote:
>
>There are bumps into walls, and then there are *bumps* into walls. While
>a leader falling high on a route (with good pro not too far below) isn't
>going to bang you into a wall too hard, seems to me that a fall between
>the first or second bolt is more likely to pull a belayer into a wall hard.

Why is the belayer standing back from the wall in the first place? If you stand in to start with, there's no slap and no drama

>And what about heavier leaders with lighter belayers who fall at the second
>bolt? The extra fall distance introduced by the belayer being pulled upwards
>could cause the leader to deck.
>
I don't recall any of the belayers in Hard Grit being tied down......I think they tend to bolt backwards to remove rope from the system, bit hard to do that if you're on a leash

I'd rather a light belayer who is good than a fat bastard who's asleep (or a lashed down numpty who's a hair's breadth away from freaking out and letting go of the rope).


ambyeok

15-Oct-2010
3:06:11 PM

>On 15/10/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>If you let go of the brake hand due to a bump, whilst still conscious,
>you are a shit belayer

Climbing is all about risk assessment. Certain risks we accept, others we control. Now I don't personally think this is a high enough risk to requiring tethering your belayer to the ground, but if you bang your elbow in a certain way your hand will release, no question. Not even superman can hold his hand shut when this happens. Try holding something and whacking your elbow with a hammer, its both fun and informative.

One Day Hero

15-Oct-2010
3:06:23 PM

On 15/10/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>
>What about if you're belaying someone on Kachoong for instance? The first
>piece is around the corner out over the void. Are you still happy not
>being anchored?

Why are you belaying up on the little ledge? Stand 15m lower at the base of the slab, will be much better for everyone if the leader stuffs the first bit.

Anyway, if you're belaying on a little ledge with a drop below you, you are multipitching. You then need to be clipped to an anchor to avoid dying......however on ledge belays, I still try to tie myself in a bit loose so that I can move around the ledge/jump to give soft catches etc.

One Day Hero

15-Oct-2010
3:10:01 PM

On 15/10/2010 ambyeok wrote:
>Not even superman
>can hold his hand shut when this happens.

Ummmm, Superman can fly, he doesn't need to faff around with ropes and belaying.


ambyeok

15-Oct-2010
3:12:16 PM

True. He would also just catch you with one hand if you fell. He would be a cool belayer. Edit: p.s. Chuck Norris could hold his hand shut.

One Day Hero

15-Oct-2010
3:27:36 PM

No one would dare to fall at the first bolt with Chuck Norris on belay.

Before you touched the ground, he'd roundhouse kick you back up to the crux!


ajfclark

15-Oct-2010
3:28:18 PM

Chuck Norris wouldn't belay. Just like he doesn't sleep.

jrc

15-Oct-2010
8:13:55 PM

Waist belay + Grammar Jumper + your thumb was ok by me. Thank you (again)

hargs

16-Oct-2010
8:22:11 AM

On 15/10/2010 jrc wrote:
>Waist belay + Grammar Jumper + your thumb was ok by me. Thank you (again)

Please explain.


ajfclark

16-Oct-2010
8:25:28 AM

There's a story on here of Mikl catching a fall on a waist belay. JRC was on the pointy end of it... I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

3rd & 4th posts: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1&MessageID=90940&Replies=32

mikllaw

16-Oct-2010
9:30:36 AM

In 2 weekends John and I are climbing together, probably the last time was in 1973 when he took a 20m factor 2 onto me with a waist belay. I'm finding it hard to get a sydney grammar school jumper big enough to fit me for waist belaying for this trip, I might have to use a stitch plate instead.

jrc

16-Oct-2010
11:08:40 AM

Mike, come on, it was a factor 3 ...remember? it sure felt like that. Your account of it is an absolute classic!

Just a few more points for the (boring) public record...
Date was 6 August 1972. Good day for a 'bomber'
Mike's belay was a waist belay with an extra karabiner to stop the rope coming up his back. That was what his hand got jammed in. We did all our belays that way, with gloves on.
I placed some dodgy looking troll nut at the top of the belay and threaded the rope through it. That probably saved (both) our lives. Fall factor would have been something like 20/ 12-13 or 1.6 (and yes I do know FF3 is impossible)
I was wearing a swami belt - 5m of 2" seatbelt wrapped around my waist & tied in a tape knot - and some legloops made out of 1" tape. I bought my first harness in 1973.
Rope was No 4 nylon hawser laid. Figure of 8 knot direct through the swami belt.
I had a plastic industrial helmet on with an elastic strap. It stayed on my head.
I fell head first. I suppose that happens in a long fall. Interesting perspective to spend 1 1/2 seconds looking at the Megalong Valley.
I don't rember a very hard stop. Thank God I didn't hit anything hard.
Somewhere between the blackboy and the end of the fall I went through some bushes and ripped skin off a few fingertips. That was my only injury. Michael was right on the ball as a belayer which is the key to this overall thread - attention to what you are doing as a belayer counts a lot more than a particular device.

I eventually did Fuddy Duddy about 20 years later with the biggest collection of big dongers and cams youve ever seen. I was still terrified. Some memories are not easily forgotten.
Mike & I last climbed together in 1978 when we did Zany. He led it (phew). I am 15kg heavier now but working on reversing that.

There are 66 messages in this topic.