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Open slings and rubber rings


ajfclark

17-Apr-2009
8:45:56 AM

Quoting http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=46912 :

An accident over the Easter weekend has prompted discussions to the safety of open slings fixed with rubber bands. It is not known if this gear set-up caused the accident, but it has brought a potentially dangerous scenario in to the public eye.

Quoting http://lifeinthevertical.blogspot.com/2009/04/quickdraw-this-could-save-your-live.html :

There was an accident recently, and having spoken to the rescue team that were present at the scene, there was a question as to the cause of the accident, as it appear that the quickdraw had failed yet hadn't. It reminded me of a problem that I had been shown a few years ago, when many climbers used elastic band to 'retain' the carabiner that clips into the rope. I still use this technique however this is a word of caution, and perhaps the reason for the recent accident.


Superstu

17-Apr-2009
9:07:41 AM

While we're on the paranoia theme... I noticed he's got his rack & slings lying on the bitumen road. The road is a melting pot of very nasty chemicals, just about every toxic substance you put into your car ends up there one way or another, so there is a good chance there will be something there to eat away your nylon/spectra/rope. Antifreeze, brake fluid, petrol, and so on.

Road runoff is a major problem for water quality in streams. It's not recommended to drink from a creek from below the road.

Slap me if I'm being pedantic...


Sonic

17-Apr-2009
9:59:33 AM

Wow, so the message is we should check our gear at the crag before we start climbing? I would have never thought of doing that in a million years!

In all seriousness though, I use elastic bands to locate my extender draws and I have never seen nor thought of that happening, so I guess you could say it is good to have it pointed out. But ultimately it is a little on the paranoid side imo.


dougal

17-Apr-2009
11:17:50 AM

Slap

stonetroll

17-Apr-2009
11:45:04 AM

On 17/04/2009 superstu wrote:
>While we're on the paranoia theme...
>

>Slap me if I'm being pedantic...

Yeh i'm with you superstu, i wouldn't leave gear lyeing on the road or in the car-boot where any sort of chemical residue could come into contact with ropes and slings. I'm also sus' about bug reppelent, sun screen and pee.


ajfclark

17-Apr-2009
11:49:29 AM

On 17/04/2009 stonetroll wrote:
>and pee.

BD has tested this. It's not good.


Sarah Gara

11-May-2009
10:50:18 AM

It's Wales guys - the roads are cleaned very regulary by all the rain. I'm sure the gear will be fine.

I was in the slate quarries that day, the women that fell broke both her legs. I didn't see any of this as I arrived later for the evening climbing but some people that stayed at the same hut as us saw the rescue.

Everyone should watch that video -I had never thought about it and you'd never notice. x

Chipbutty

29-May-2009
10:17:55 PM

I use open slings quite a bit without a rubber band, as they are quite long I double them up and extend as neccessary which leaves a twist around one of the biners thus retaining it a little, obviously it can all become a bit messy but seems ok,


IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-May-2009
11:17:11 AM

On 11/05/2009 Sarah Gara wrote:
>Everyone should watch that video -I had never thought about it and you'd
>never notice. x

Although it is possible not to notice, I consider that to be an error on the part of the leader concerned, (or their mentor).
I think it good technique to have your rack sorted in all respects (including safety), before leading off on a pitch about to be undertaken. It is a simple habit and easily achieved; ... much like getting into the habit of flaking a rope out prior to the first lead to avoid tangles.

Paul

30-May-2009
12:18:22 PM

The risk of this problem can be avoided if you put your sling around the karabiner twice before putting the rubber ring on.

stonetroll

31-May-2009
3:11:00 AM

On 29/05/2009 tobyholyhead wrote:
>I use open slings quite a bit without a rubber band, as they are quite
>long I double them up and extend as neccessary which leaves a twist around
>one of the biners thus retaining it a little, obviously it can all become
>a bit messy but seems ok,

I used to double back long slings for racking buy folding the sling in half then clipping the 'binners on. Which sounds like the technique you're useing here.

However when it was pointed out to me that the little "twist" that comes into play when the sling gets extended while leading, can, under certain conditions open the gate of the 'binner. Then i changed to the folding technique that is actually described in the PETZL book.

That technique is to thread the rope 'binner through the gear 'binner then clip the rope binner over the loop of the sling. ( i hope that makes sence ).

That way there's no little loop when the sling gets extended. It's considerd to be safer.

I don't know how to set up a link for their web sight ( maybe some nerd would like to do that for me ) however if you go to PETZL web sight and find mountaineering tech tips, there you can see pictures of this slinging technique.


ajfclark

17-Jun-2010
10:22:10 AM

On 17/04/2009 Sonic wrote:
>But ultimately it is a little on the paranoid side imo.

Maybe not Sonic, apparently this recent accident was caused by this problem:

http://climbingnarc.com/2010/06/accident-at-new-river-gorge-offers-learning-experience/

patto

17-Jun-2010
12:28:07 PM

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2348841#2348841

Yes before the thread got derailled with petty bickering that puts chockstone to shame there was actually some sensible discussion.

The obvious conclusion really is to avoid this method with rubber bands or Petzl Strings. It just isn't worth the risk.

mikllaw

17-Jun-2010
1:06:13 PM

for open slings like this I use a slippery hitch to keep the biner in place, if it reclips it's still solid.

replace wood with biner

Chipbutty

17-Jun-2010
8:44:13 PM

Is it ok to have a knot in the sling like that or is there a possibility of friction being created in a fall as the knot tightens? just a question as I like this and might use it, also what about a girth hitch around the biner?

patto

18-Jun-2010
11:20:28 AM

On 17/06/2010 tobyh wrote:
>Is it ok to have a knot in the sling like that or is there a possibility
>of friction being created in a fall as the knot tightens? just a question
>as I like this and might use it, also what about a girth hitch around the
>biner?

I would argue a strong NO, its not ok.

Knotting reduces strength in spectra/dynema slings by close to 50%. This has been shown countless times in testing. Most recently this can be seen in the DMM testing where the spectra slings broke at 45% less force when they had knots in them.

I'm not saying never knot slings but leaving a permanent knot in your slings you use for protection just seems to be asking for trouble.

mikllaw

18-Jun-2010
11:56:54 AM

I'd never use this permanently, just for the odd desperate-long-sling-clip on a sports route where
a) forces are every low
b) there's another piece close below

patto

18-Jun-2010
1:12:32 PM

On 18/06/2010 mikllaw wrote:
>I'd never use this permanently, just for the odd desperate-long-sling-clip
>on a sports route where
>a) forces are every low
>b) there's another piece close below

Fair enough. :-)

rightarmbad

18-Jun-2010
1:46:36 PM

I use, and will continue to use the rubber O rings.
It is no more of a problem than back clipping, forgetting to lock screw gates and other silly stuff.
They offer an advantage in everyday climbing of the biner always being located correctly, as well as making lengthening a tripled long sling always the correct way without either losing the sling out of the biner or ending up with a girth hitched runner.

On long slings I'm even considering an O ring at both ends.
All of my trad draws are sewn loops for maximum floppiness, an O ring to make one end captive is an elegant solution.
I believe that the improvement in fumble free clipping and the reduction of rope induced movement of a piece far outweighs the small risk of this rare type of failure.

Paranoid types can do as they please, but to me it is a tiny risk that is easily mitigated, and offers real improvement in everyday situations.

Should we swap out all of our non locking biners for locking ones?
Similar sort of crap argument.


ado_m

18-Jun-2010
1:51:48 PM

this is why i always use rated rubber bands.

There are 33 messages in this topic.