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self-unclipping quickdraw

citationx

30-Oct-2008
9:57:49 AM

On 29/10/2008 ajfclark wrote:
>On 29/10/2008 daave wrote:
>>Has anyone else had a similar experience or got any reasons why this
>may have happend?
>
>Here's some ways to do this from http://www.climerware.com/unclip.shtml
>:
>

i have belayed someone on a climb in which this scenario occured, as ajfclark showed. it was on santa's little helper down in nowra. the reason that i've put it down to relates to a combination of factors all at once:
-biner gates on the draws opposing direction
-using it on a bolt that has a "flat top", ie, the very top of the bolt is at least perpendicular to the rock face, if not making an acute angle (allows the biner to get "stuck" on the top of the bolt when rotating)
-and, you align the biner with the direction you eventually head, but you travel in the opposite direction as you pass it before crossing back over the top, as you usually do on madge. you clip the bolt, with the anchors up to your right, but you make moves to the left of the bolt first, then head back right to clip anchors..
my solution was to just have all my biners same-sided on my draws.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Oct-2008
10:17:34 AM

Is there a theme happening with the climbing team here?
Olbert took a fall off the top of a short climb recently??

I agree with critical pieces having screwgates.

Also agree with stiff draws being bad news. I hate the 'dog bone' ones even on aid!

Also don't like bent gates for clipping the pro/bolt either, as I think they lend themselves to unclipping better than straight gates in that situation.

daave

30-Oct-2008
10:56:59 AM

On 30/10/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Is there a theme happening with the climbing team here?
>Olbert took a fall off the top of a short climb recently??

Well, what can I say, anyone can work up to clean a 25, but the real skill comes in taking bigger falls with head-smacking, quickdraw unclipping fun. Neither of us wants to be outdone!! ;)

As olbert said in an MSN convo last night..."if anything it's something to bump up our safety consciousness"

But, I would say that neither of these falls were related to being "unsafe" as such, more the fact that more can be done to ensure saftey whilst climbing.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Oct-2008
11:07:01 AM

nuff, nuff said the faeries!
Heh, heh, heh.

>neither of these falls were related to being "unsafe" as such, more the fact that more can be done to ensure saftey whilst climbing.

It is a good thread you have started.
~> never hurts to be safety minded, though as mikl once wrote words to the effect of; "It is a privilege to participate in a sport where you can die."

Even with all the right gear/placements/knowledge/intentions/etc ... sh!t still happens.

widewetandslippery

30-Oct-2008
11:28:01 AM

On 30/10/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Is there a theme happening with the climbing team here?
>Olbert took a fall off the top of a short climb recently??

These boys are doing a great job at improving it sounds and I reckon would provide some great sports action at the crag!
>
>I agree with critical pieces having screwgates.

I think in this situation screwgates aren't practical. Short sports climbs are by nature clip and go. Risk is involved, but calculated and accepted. As an aside I think a lot of risks taken sport climbing are often risks people wouldn't take climbing on there own gear. Bolts can provide an illusionry sense of safety. That is there beauty, you climb harder because you con yourself into thinking your bullet proof.
>
>Also agree with stiff draws being bad news. I hate the 'dog bone' ones
>even on aid!
>
>Also don't like bent gates for clipping the pro/bolt either, as I think
>they lend themselves to unclipping better than straight gates in that situation.

Fully agree with those points.

Olbert

30-Oct-2008
11:35:06 AM

On 30/10/2008 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Is there a theme happening with the climbing team here?
>Olbert took a fall off the top of a short climb recently??
If you mean we are pushing ourselves beyond our normal limits, then yeah. I dont think my fall had anything to do with being dodgy, it was more to do with me pumping like theres no tomorrow and yet still attempting to clip the anchors off shitty crimpers(the jugs were untouched just above).

>I agree with critical pieces having screwgates.
This is at the limit of pumpyness for us, so spending a few extra moments with a screwgate would all but make this climb impossible, especially cos the 'jug' that you are clipping off is rather awkward, as are the feet.

>Also agree with stiff draws being bad news. I hate the 'dog bone' ones
>even on aid!
>
>Also don't like bent gates for clipping the pro/bolt either, as I think
>they lend themselves to unclipping better than straight gates in that situation.
The straight gate biner was clipped into the bolt


IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Oct-2008
12:06:24 PM

WW&S wrote;
>These boys are doing a great job at improving it sounds

Agreed.
Sorry Olbert and daave. My post was meant to be a good natured jibe rather than a dig. I should have added a smiley (or tongue in cheek symbol);-) :), ~ but did not pick up on the possible ambiguity of the post at the time.

>limit of pumpyness for us

... that is when sport climbers preplace draws! ... or have an extended draw below as a backup.
:)
:)


macciza

30-Oct-2008
12:12:57 PM

I've always considered Madge a candidate for 'free-ing' the 'aid' from - I reckon it goes clean on gear . . .
Thanks, I think you've tested the fall for me as the second last ring is also last gear if I remember right.

Chipbutty

30-Oct-2008
12:30:58 PM

Two weeks ago I was seconding the traverse on Sweet Dreams when I came across a quickdraw hanging on the carrot by the webbing, the bolt plate was still attached to the carabiner and the other end to our rope, I asked my partner what he was doing! he had no idea it had happened, what are the chances! I fiddled around to see if and how easily the bolt plate could come off, I think it was possible but not easy.


tnd

30-Oct-2008
2:47:07 PM

On 30/10/2008 Olbert wrote:
>...This is at the limit of pumpyness for us, so spending a few extra moments
>with a screwgate would all but make this climb impossible, especially cos
>the 'jug' that you are clipping off is rather awkward, as are the feet.
>

Then consider using a screwgate on the top end of the quick draw (placed while "putting the gear up"), which would have prevented this occurrence.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Oct-2008
2:53:15 PM

[M9 is not as fast as simey or ES on other threads, but faster than tnd on this one!
Heh, heh, heh.]

;-)


Eduardo Slabofvic

30-Oct-2008
3:13:59 PM

One of those twist locks that don't automatically close locked would be the go.


rodw

30-Oct-2008
8:26:20 PM

Whats the issue he didnt deck???, so the route was bolted well that if the last piece failed the next bolt placement would pull you up before you hit the ground...it really only becomes a problem on sport routes if the equiper decides to run it out not taking into account the placement could fail and cause extra grief by decking....but does highlight just because your running it out on bolts the bolt below still could fail and be aware on the consequences if they do....you should treat those bolts as you would placed gear in gauging your risk.

Not saying dont have run outs...each to there own....just ppl take it into account and not have blind faith in those little shiny things.

daave

30-Oct-2008
9:22:45 PM

On 30/10/2008 rodw wrote:
>Whats the issue he didnt deck???, so the route was bolted well that if
>the last piece failed the next bolt placement would pull you up before
>you hit the ground..

Ok, so I didn't deck, but who says you need to actually deck to get injured/killed???

That is an interesting point though that you have brought up. How often have we all been on a sport route with easy ground finishing the climb coupled with a runout?? Even though it is easy ground, Shit happens, you fall, ur last piece fails, then you deck. Just another thing to consider when bolting i spose.
Just goes to show, shiny rings, doesnt necessarily make it 'safe'...


rodw

30-Oct-2008
9:37:03 PM

Daave wasnt havent a go at you mate..sounded like a huge fall I would have shit myself...and by telling your story perhaps a few people wont be so blaise about sport routes..its all climbing and it all has the potential to be dangerous...some just think rings mitigate it when it dosn't.


wallwombat

30-Oct-2008
10:48:58 PM

>On 30/10/2008 rodw wrote:
>...it really only becomes a problem on sport routes if the equiper decides to run it out .........

Well, there's no chance of it happening on one of your routes, Rod ; )

>On 30/10/2008 daave wrote:
>Ok, so I didn't deck, but who says you need to actually deck to get injured/killed???
>
>That is an interesting point though that you have brought up. How often
>have we all been on a sport route with easy ground finishing the climb
>coupled with a runout?? Even though it is easy ground, Shit happens, you
>fall, ur last piece fails, then you deck. Just another thing to consider
>when bolting i spose.
>Just goes to show, shiny rings, doesnt necessarily make it 'safe'...

This all sounds SCARY!

No wonder I rarely go sport climbing.


rodw

31-Oct-2008
7:57:06 AM

>Well, there's no chance of it happening on one of your routes, Rod ; )

Thats the idea...I dont like bouncing.

daave

31-Oct-2008
8:13:38 AM

On 30/10/2008 rodw wrote:
>Daave wasnt havent a go at you mate..sounded like a huge fall I would have
>shit myself...and by telling your story perhaps a few people wont be so
>blaise about sport routes..its all climbing and it all has the potential
>to be dangerous...some just think rings mitigate it when it dosn't.

Yeah, no worries mate. Didn't mean for my response to sound so defensive but, as per usual, it was lost in the net.

Thats it, i'm hoping that if people do read this and even consider the consequences of incorrect QD orientation more than what they previously would, then all's better.


Pat

31-Oct-2008
9:41:16 AM

Excellent thread. Thanks for putting it out there. Reading it I have been trying to imagine how this would
happen. The photo post was really helpful. I just got a bolt plate and a karabiner out and it was eye
poppingly easy to detach the krab when it was oriented in the less optimal direction. If you have any
doubts try it out.

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